Uses for SBS and AOL?

[NewGuy1911]

Hi,
Looking for/trying to find, articles by Mr. McCracken regarding the uses of SBS and AOL's. I believe Wilson Combat and Remington manufacture these and some police departments may us them.

Is there a real advantage to a 870P barrel being shorter than 18-20" ? And at what point does it become to specialized for general HD/survival/self-defense/police work (close range, what ever that is)???

Many Thanks

 

[Skribs]

Tactical shotguns seem to run 18-22" barrel length. The advantage of a shorter barrel is simply that it is easier to move around with, which is important in vehicles or hallways.

 

[Dogbite]

I am a class 3 weapons dealer, and sell weapons of this nature. Mostly, SBS and SBR weapons would be used for entry teams in law enforcement. They are great for operating in a tight spot. Usually you see short pump guns and short AR's in this role. In my state, you can own one legally after you procure a federal tax stamp. They would be great inside your home, used in a self defense role. Also would also be very handy stored inside a vehicle, where they could be deployed easily due to the very short barre,(not that I would recommend leaving it in the vehicle). Otherwise, they are just fun guns for shooting at the local range.

 

[p2000sk]

They would be great inside your home, used in a self defense role.

Is there any legal downside to that?

 

[NewGuy1911]

Thanks DogBite, re-read your post, got a little more from it. Thanks

Wish this post stayed in the Shotgun section!!!

 

[Saakee]

Is there any legal downside to that?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_168_28/ai_112685749/ not an in-home or a shotgun but it is an NFA weapon used in a self-defense situation

I haven't yet read this link myself, the story I read before was written by an actual journalist in the neutral form but this should be good, MAyoob is good.

 

[MasterSergeantA]

I used a short barreled 870 in Iraq for building entry/clearing. Worked both as a breacher and close quarters tool and I learned to like it a lot. I have a 12" 870 AOW now that I carry in the car with me when I travel (where permitted) which gets tucked between the front seats. Back-up is a 3" Taurus Judge in a cross-draw holster (also where permitted), loaded with Winchester PDX rounds.

 

[NewGuy1911]

MasterSergeantA, thanks for posting!

 

[NewGuy1911]

MasterSergeantA, your thoughts regarding shotgun barrel length. Maybe the longest/shortest shotgun barrel for HD, self-defense, survival,...etc. From my reading; a rife (M1A 308 Scout ???) makes scents after 35-50 yds (?), probably few people could hit a target with a 1911 45 acp (this would be my choice) at close range, maybe fewer people could hit a target with the Wilson Combat WP870 AOW,...


I hope needing a firearm for HD/self-defense never arises. I view the use of the shotgun for the Home, campground, travel, close range and I tend to like the idea of the 14-16" less than 18.5-20" barrel. If someone is shooting at me from 25-35 yds they're very serious about killing me and I do not believe I will survive that!

 

[MasterSergeantA]

An 18" barrel...minimum legal length without NFA hoop jumping...will suffice for most social discourse. Shorter barrels are more easily handled in tight spaces, but they increase noise and recoil, all other things being equal. We used them for breaching and CQB because that is ALL we used them for. The guys manning roadblocks, etc. used Mossberg 500/590s as a rule. Even the PSD kids carried stocked, standard length guns.

Longer barrels are better for bird hunting, but if you can sneak up on it, an 18" will probably kill it. I understand and support the Migratory Bird Act, but if I am in a survival situation...

The 1911 is accurate to about 15-25 meters on a man-sized target for most folks who are properly trained. I know guys in various small units who, given a customized gun, can do much better than that. But I always tell people that a handgun is just my short-term solution to get to a long gun. The M1A Scout is a very nice little rifle and can easily fill the bill from 50m out to 300m (or more depending on skill level). But longer distances are not really 'self-defense' distances unless someone opens up on you from that far out and appears to have some skill and then keeps coming at you.

I think statistics indicate that most 'self-defense' shootings are in the 11 meter or less range. A good handgun will suffice for that and the shotgun may offer more of an advantage if handled correctly. One school of thought offers that a submachinegun is even better in the HD role. That could be extended to SBRs for those not up to funding a full-auto purchase.

If someone is shooting at you from any range, I would suggest it is a good idea to presume that they are "very serious about killing" you and react accordingly. The further out they are, the more likely you are to evade them. When they get close, you lose that option.

My AOW goes into a custom shoulder rig that hangs under my right arm with a holster for a 1911 on the weak side. That allows me to be very 'well heeled', as the saying goes down here, and I can cover it with a light jacket or loose shirt as I am a large SOB. With a tactical vest, the shotgun goes into a rear-mounted scabbard and the pistol goes in front on the left side. So close up, I don't have a problem.

 

[Jesse 8]

Thanks for the insight and your service.

 

[MasterSergeantA]

Happy to help. Just remember...my advice is worth exactly what it cost you.

 

[NewGuy1911]

Ditto! Thanks for the insight and your service.

Please understand I have never fired a shotgun and I'm hoping to order a Remington 870P #24899 this Monday. Can you suggest good ways to compact a 18.5" 12 ga; making it easier to store and still be vary usable. Imagine driving around and finding yourself in the middle of a riot!!!

Your thoughts on folding stocks?

I imagine you are very skilled with the AOW Wilson Combat-type Witness Protection shotgun; how difficult would it be for an average person to become proficient with it?

Sir, please give this some thought, I enjoy the 1911 45 acp (I'm not a good shot though, however I want to improve); If I can only take one Tactical course, shotgun or pistol, which would I benefit more from? I think I just answered my own question, I'm going to shoot action-type games anyway so maybe the Tactical shotgun course. Some of these shotgun classes are very expensive!!!

Many Thanks

 

[JustinJ]

Is there any legal downside to that?

As i understand the use of NFA weapons in the comission of a crime comes with stiff mandatory sentences. So if a home or self defense type shooting is found to be illegal somehow the use of a NFA weapon could make the penalties far worse.

Not to mention the social stigma associated with some NFA items such as silencers. This could theoretically motivate a DA to file charges with some assertions such as "possesion of such a deadly weapon indicates a desire to kill".

In a state without castle doctrine i wouldn't use an NFA weapon for home defense.

 

[MasterSergeantA]

Folding stocks will help reduce the overall length of any shotgun (said Captain Obvious). The trade-off is that they also reduce the weight...which increases felt recoil. Some are downright uncomfortable. Remington made a "police" top-folding stock which has a bunch of edges on it. ATI has duplicated that stock concept in plastic and made them 'universal' for most major brands. Choate makes/made a side-folder that worked pretty well although the extra width of the stock alongside the receiver can make it more difficult to store. Knoxx/Blackhawk makes an adjustable length stock (similar to the M4) that also incorporates a recoil damping system. A similar offering, the "Breacher" stock, eliminates the shoulder piece but retains the recoil damping effect. This was the set-up that we used downrange. It doesn't add much length to the short gun, but reduces recoil significantly.

Not sure how "skilled" I am; more a matter of getting used to it. Any pistol grip only (PGO) shotgun benefits from a pistol grip forend. Safety Harbor Firearms and Mark Serbu (Serbu Arms) both make a folding forend that works for a lot of people. There are also fixed forends that make it harder to carry in a scabbard, but do ease the recoil. An additional benefit is that your hand is not likely to slip off the forend and pass in front of the muzzle while you are pulling the trigger. That would be a 'bad' thing.

Any "average" person can gain a level of skill simply by practicing. You can start off with lighter loads and work up to whatever you think you will need to carry. I am a big fan of #4 buckshot and have used it since I was in WESPAC back in the late 60s. But for doors, breaching rounds are better. They don't work as well for CQB, but any time you have to shoot someone at close range, any round beats being empty. The best way to gain proficiency is to practice. No surprise there.

I have carried a 1911 of some variant since 1967. Great pistol and my favorite hands down. My present EDC gun is a 1911, although I own others. Again, practice doesn't make perfect, but perfect practice does. I don't get to shoot as much as I would like (do any of us?), but I make a point of trying to maintain some level of currency with anything I am going to carry. Any "tactical" course you take will benefit you so long as it is taught by a competent instructor. There are plenty of good courses out there; a little research will provide some options. I am reluctant to recommend any as I have not attended any of the current lot myself. (My rich Uncle sent me to enough training for my needs.) Just beware of "Billy Ray's School of Tactical Marksmanship and Hair Styling" run out of a double-wide in back of the local mini-mall.

Here endeth the sermon for the day. Sorry to run so long; your questions are short...answers to them, not so much.

 

[NewGuy1911]

Many Thanks MasterSergeantA And JustinJ

 

[MasterSergeantA]

As i understand the use of NFA weapons in the comission of a crime comes with stiff mandatory sentences. So if a home or self defense type shooting is found to be illegal somehow the use of a NFA weapon could make the penalties far worse.

Not to mention the social stigma associated with some NFA items such as silencers. This could theoretically motivate a DA to file charges with some assertions such as "possesion of such a deadly weapon indicates a desire to kill".

In a state without castle doctrine i wouldn't use an NFA weapon for home defense.

Justin,

Your point is well taken. Just shows how far from reality our legal (not justice) system has strayed.

I am lucky enough to live in Arizona. Lots of space left here; move before the apocalypse.

 

[C0untZer0]

I always thought a Serbu shorty would be the perfect weapon for behind the counter at a liquor store / gas station etc...

The space between the counter and the back wall is probably only 3 feet, kinda difficult to bring the shotgun straight out and pointing forward on target. I imagine with most stores the shot gun has to be brought out to the side and then swung around to the front, or the store owner opts for a handgun.

 

[MasterSergeantA]

Or suspend the shotgun from the underside of the counter with the muzzle facing the customer side. Then the counterperson needs only to reach under the counter and squeeze the trigger. Shot should easily penetrate the front of the counter and take the miscreant down. Probably reduce collateral damage further into the store as well.

Just a thought.

 

[jmorris]

One benefit of an SBR is that it keeps OAL length reasonable even if you use a suppressor. Makes for a faster 1st shot at a coyote, than grabbing for some earmuffs or plugs.





Or they are as compact as any takedown rifle but remain ready to fire at all times.

 

[MasterSergeantA]

What mount is that?

 

[jmorris]

Homemade, 1x1-.125 box tube and 3/4" bar stock drilled and tapped to accept the ATV mounts off of my 3 gun cart. It bolts to the holes in the roll bar that are used by the factory soft top.

Lots of room above the window in a jeep with a hard top.