Using Brown Bear/Silver Bear in my LMT & Rock River AR-15s

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I am just fed up with ammo prices and need to save money so I can do some more shooting. Can anyone tell me their most honest, unbiased opinion about shooting the Brown Bear and its cousin, Silver Bear, out of your ARs? I have an LMT MRP AR, as well as a Rock River Tac A4 AR. The LMT is 1:7 twist, whereas the Rock River is 1:9, so I would prefer to have a mix of 62gr and 55gr ammo, but most shooting will be done from my LMT, so I would mostly want heavier weight bullets shot out of it. It seems the M855 green-tip ammo is the cheapest 62gr+ weight rounds I can find and those are just outrageous expensive, like over $0.35/ round. I have seen some Silver Bear 62gr Soft-Points going for $0.22/round.

So, whats the scoop? Should I just stay so far from any steel-cased lacquered ammo or considering the prices of ammo, be willing to make concessions and start using this stuff for my plinking ammo.

I know these are some nice quality ARs I have, especially the LMT, and I have heard the horror stories of steel casing scratching up the chamber, but I'd like to hear from various people here their opinion about this issue. One thing I know is the Silver Bear is Zinc-Plated, so I was thinking that may prevent the steel on aluminum/steel contact that would happen with steel ammo that is not plated like Wolf.
 
IMHO I wouldn't take the risk. You might be able to fire them with no problem, but there is always a chance with steel ammo that there might be a problem. In that expensive of an AR, I wouldn't risk it.
 
Man, honest opinion, I wouldnt do it at all. As you mentioned, you have some nice rifles and without a doubt bigtime $$$ invested in them. I have shot Brown Bear, Silver Bear, and Wolf in my desert plinker AK only-and I mean ONLY!! I would never put that brand ammo in my AR's. It is not that I have anything to show for damage to my rifle, I dont, just poor results for accuracy, feeding, and a lot of dirty parts with relatively little shooting. And then you have to ask yourself what joy you get from shooting. If you just like to go blast away, the cheap ammo may be for you. If you like ringing gongs, dont waste your time and money with cheap ammo. I was reminded this past weekend, once again, how critical good quality loads are on everything for your rifle. Your gun is what it eats!!

My honest reccomendation......invest in some reloading equipment, good brass, Sierra Manual, time & qualityknowldege and save yourself some major moola and end up with high quality rounds tailored to your AR's for accuracy and low cost! You can have both and reloading is really pretty enjoyable!
 
Don't get upset, this is just my opinion, but I would stick with the brass cased ammo. Semi-Autos are a bit different than bolt guns in that the bolt is already moving by the time the case has cooled to the point it can be extracted. Metal cases do not spring back as fast or as much as brass. While many many people use the steel cases in their semi's it would be a good idea to have a "stuck case remover" on hand just in case especially if you heat that chamber up a lot by rapid fire.

We each have to do what we think is right, just be careful.
Jim

Just read the post above me and my reloaded rounds run about 0.23 cents to 0.26 cents each with reused brass cases. Most of the cost is the bullet and hardly anything for powder and primer.
 
I'm a fan of the silver bear 62gr HP load (~4000 rounds thus far). It shoots a consistent 3 moa @ 100 yards for me and ALL four of my AR's are 100% reliable with it. I say grab 500 rounds and se how it does in your rifles.
 
I have shot steel case ammo in my Armalite, but tend to stick with Federal LC ammo, and reload.
If you keep an eye out for sales on bullets, and primers, reloading can keep the cost close to even with brown bear. The advantage I get in reloading is accuracy, and better bullets for the intended use. I use my AR for coyote & ground hogs as well as target shooting.
If you dont want to spend the time at the bench, and dont mind a slight loss in accuracy, the steel cased stuff should be fine.
 
I'm a reloader and don't bother wasting my time reloading .223 plinking ammo. I don't understand some of the comments above. The guys are telling you that they would avoid shooting steel cased ammo, but cannot give you any specific reason.

First, if your rifle won't run steel cased ammo, there's something wrong with your rifle, not the ammo. Second, steel cased ammo won't hurt your rifle in anyway. The steel cases are very soft, relative to the chrome lining in your barrels.

I run tons of the Silver Bear 62gr HP through my rifles and have never had a problem. The stuff shoots pretty good too. I have no problems hitting clay pigeons at 100 yards.
 
Excellent response Tony. That is the biggest problem with the "Anti-Steel" case ammo crowd. They cry as if the weapon is going to blow up; yet they have no proof or even speculation to support their claims. There isn't one negative to steel case ammo, other than you can't really reload it; if you're into that. As for steel case "POSSIBLY" causing problems, or "I don't want to take the chance"; that is pure crap. There isn't one negative.

Now; is it possible that an INDIVIDUAL PARTICULAR rifle may not like the steel case ammo? Yup; definitely. But Tony is correct. If your rifle won't reliably shoot the steel case ammo, the problem is with your rifle. Not the ammo. That doesn't mean you necessarily need to have your rifle worked on. It might not be worth it. I have a Walther PPK pistol; good quality; that will not under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE shoot Cor-Bon ammo. It won't fit properly and chamber. Is it cor-bon's problem or the pistol? It's the pistol. But, it fires all other ammo, so it's not worth me having the chambered worked on for one particular manufacturer of ammo. Same with steel case. If your rifle doesn't shoot a particular steel case ammo, that doesn't mean all is doomed. Try other manufacturers. Try silver bear, brown bear, wolf, mfs, barnaul, tiger, tula, etc... And don't let anyone tell you that they're all the same, or that they're all made by only 2 manufacturers. Each has their own characteristics and will relate differently to your rifle.

I shoot 90+% of my .223 ammo in my M&P15 and my FrankenAR with steel case ammo. Anyone who says they "Won't take the chance", or that it "Might cause damage", truly and honestly are ignorant about this subject, and doesn't know what they're talking about. Not meant to hurt anyone's feelings, but that's the truth. A particular rifle might not like a particular brand of ammo; steel or brass; but that's not the ammo's fault, and it's definitely not going to cause a problem. NO, it's not going to wear down your extractor. NO, it's not going to hurt the chamber. Absolutely no harm is going to come from using steel case ammo. And anyone that says their rifle was harmed by steel case ammo is wrong or BSing. If their rifle actually malfunctioned, then it was going to malfunction anyway; even with brass ammo.
 
I shoot both Silver Bear and Brown Bear in my ARs. I'm pleased with the accuracy of both. Never experienced any problems with either.

Some shooters experience problems with lacquer/polymer coated steel cased 5.56 ammo in their ARs - the cases become stuck in the chamber - so I suggest you fire about 100 rounds of Brown Bear through each of your rifles to make sure it's compatible with them before you make any large purchases of it.

Silver Bear seems to work just fine in any AR.

Beware of wive's tales and internet myths regarding steel cased 5.56 ammo.
 
I have several thousand rounds of Wolf, Brown and Silver Bear through my POF piston AR and my BCM midlength AR. I have had no problems of any kind.
That said, steel case is not my go to self defende ammo as it tends to be less powerful than milspec stuff and is slightly less accurate.
What I use it for is carbine classes or CQB drills.
As long as your AR has a 5.56 chamber you should be fine. If you have a .223 chamber you might experience some sticky cases in either instance, scrub out the chamber thoroughly after a steel case session. Due to the slight difference in expansion between brass and steel your chamber gets dirtier faster with steel cases.
 
I'd be a little hesitant to use lacquered and even polymer-coated cases (like Brown Bear/Wolf) if you do a lot of rapid fire. The direct impingement design of ARs puts more heat in the action, so there's the potential to melt those case coatings and end up with a mess. On the other hand, lacquered cases should be just fine for piston guns, and even DI guns if you shoot slower.

Silver Bear, on the other hand, is zinc-coated so you don't have to worry about it melting. It should run just fine in an AR. The bigger concern with Silver Bear is corrosion if it's stored in a humid environment. For plinking this isn't a real concern, but if you're trying to stockpile ammo you'd have to be a little more careful with it.
 
Effigy, where on the net did you get that stuff from. I don't mean to be rough, but that's just the sort of non sensical disinformation that has people like the OP asking the sorts of questions that led to this thread.

I would suggest that you do a little test. Take a fired lacquered case, put it in a vice and put a blow torch to it. I'll bet that you can't get that lacquer to melt.

Shooting steel cased ammo will NOT leave lacquer in your chamber, regardless of the manner of shooting. I also don't get the part about it not being ok in a DI rifle, but ok for a piston gun. What's the distinction? If the lacquer did come off, lacquer in the chamber would have the same effect on the any rifle.

As a matter of fact, I do prefer to shoot the zinc coated stuff, as opposed to the lacquered stuff. I don't know why, I just do. Maybe it's because it's prettier. On the other hand, when I know that I'm going on a weekend trip and know that the ammunition may be exposed to adverse conditions for more than a short time, I use the lacquered stuff. The zinc coated stuff tends to corrode pretty quickly, when exposed to the elements.
 
I've heard of people's ARs melting the lacquered cases. Maybe it's just internet BS, but it would give me pause before putting it in my $1k+ rifle. Especially when I could get Silver Bear for almost the same price and not have to worry about it.

As for DI vs. piston, the DI system ports hot ballistic gasses directly into the chamber, thus making it hotter. A piston gun ports gasses into a separate gas tube that operates a piston, which in turn acts on the bolt carrier group to cycle the action. With the piston design (e.g. AK-47), the heat from the gas system stays in the handguard area and is not sent to the chamber. Assuming that the lacquer coating can melt (which may or may not be true in practice), it's more likely to be a concern with the DI system due to higher temperature in the action after multiple firings, compared to the piston system.
 
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OK, so you've HEARD of this lacquer problem. Well, there you go. It is just internet BS.

I am well aware of how the DI and piston systems work. I have both and neither divert hot ballistic gases directly into the chamber. Even if one or the other did, the lacquer is on the outside of the case. It is not on the inside of the case being blown through the gas system when the round goes off. To clarify things, the DI system of an AR ports gases from the barrel, up through the gas block, through the gas tube that passes though the upper receiver and enters the gas key on the bolt carrier. The gasses are then vented out of those little holes in the carrier. The gases are never diverted back into the chamber.

Quite frankly, if what you say was true, the lacquer would gum up a piston system on an AR a lot worse than it would a DI system. You really can't compare the system on an AK to those used on ARs. They are similar in concept, but not implementation.
 
Just curious but why do you insist on 62 grain or heavier bullets? Quality brass cased ammo can be had for 5.50-5.99 per 20 all day long and are great for plinkin.

Then you can save those brass cases and reload 'em with your hunting/match ammo.

Of course if you want steel have at it, it won't hurt a thing.
 
Hornady just came out with their own line of steel cased ammo. 'Nuf said.
Watch for other domestic ammo makers to jump onto the bandwagon.
 
@ Tony: I think the concern is more with lacquer melting on the chamber itself, not getting stuck in the gas system. I admit I'm not intimately familiar with the DI system, but I was researching it while trying to decide whether to buy an AR and which model. Whether the gasses are being directed into the chamber or or some other part of the bolt carrier, the idea is that they are still being directed there and it will absorb more heat versus a pistol design. I've never heard anyone dispute that point.

Of course one shouldn't trust everything on the internet. Still, I don't want to have to make all the mistakes myself. I've read several reports of issues with lacquered cases in ARs, either with the cases getting stuck or the lacquer residue causing brass cases to get stuck. I believe this was why they started using a polymer coating instead of lacquer on the new production rounds as well.
 
Effigy; I'm not going to harp on what Tony has already gracefully said; but the point is: The lacquer or polymer can not and will not MELT off of the case. Ain't going to happen.

If you want to know why some cases STICK in the chamber, it's because some people don't clean their rifle enough. With steel cases, the steel doesn't expand quite as much as brass. Therefor, some of the powder/carbon/residue, does a partial blow back and some of the carbon/powder/residue winds up in the chamber; on the sides where the case would fit. If done enough; couple hundred; or less if you have a very tight chamber; eventually a case can get stuck by expanding enough. Even greater chance if you shoot brass after a lot of dirty steel case ammo. Me personally, I'll shoot 60-100 rounds of steel case, then I'll follow with about 5-10 rounds of brass. You can see the grime heavy on the first brass case. Each one after will have less. By about the 5th round, there's basically none. "Great Pre-Cleaning before going home". The more expanding brass will collect a lot of the grime.

As for zinc; it's PLATED, not COATED. Plated is done electrically, chemically, with hit, or pressure. Coating is simply a painted on or dipped layer. Basically 2 separate layers. Plating is usually more permanent.

Anyway; like Tony mentioned, you're simply repeating internet B.S. ignorance. Not your fault. But you need to realize that just because you saw it on the internet, on TV, or in the news, doesn't make it true. It took me until my kids were in the 5th or 6th grade, to convince them that "Just because the teacher said it, doesn't mean s/he's right". Many times, they are wrong. Teaching kids to give the teach the answer S/He WANTS and KNOWING the RIGHT ANSWER are 2 totally different things.

Anyway; there's absolutely NOTHING harmful or bad about using steel case ammo. If a particular gun doesn't like a certain steel case ammo, it's the gun's problem. Try a different steel case ammo. And NO MAGS, you can't find .223 brass ammo for $5.50-$5.99 all day long. Sometimes you can find a sale. Sometimes, if you want to buy 1000 rounds online, you can get lucky and get a low price. But "All day long" is not an accurate answer.
 
And NO MAGS, you can't find .223 brass ammo for $5.50-$5.99 all day long. Sometimes you can find a sale. Sometimes, if you want to buy 1000 rounds online, you can get lucky and get a low price. But "All day long" is not an accurate answer.
Click to expand...

These prices haven't changed for a few months:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=APMC223FMJ55&name=PMC+.223+55grn+FMJ+20rd+box&groupid=21
http://palmettostatearmory.com/168.php

I even seen some 62 grain for a good price:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/1101.php

Keep in mind like CHRISTCORP said you can get a better deal buying in bulk off the net so check those same linked sites out for deals on 1k+ rounds.

And if buying off the net ain't your deal Sportsman's Warehouse here has Federal M193 and PMC bronze for 5.99 ALL DAY LONG providing if they can keep it on the shelves. they also have 50 round packs of HSM remanufactured for 12.99 but that's on sale.
 
@ christcorp: Well, that makes a lot more sense. I can see why people would assume it was the lacquer causing the problem though, hence the internet rumors.
 
I can't believe this thread has morphed into the "dirty, sticky, laquered, DI is junk", ad nauseam...

As the internet doesn't convey sarcasm well, I'll make a point to say that I'm attempting to be facetious.

I won't claim to be an expert but I've ran over 1k rounds of steel through my Spikes middy, no failures. Including brass, I'm close to 2k rounds total and I've cleaned the rifle two times. Again, no failures. I may just continue shooting Wolf/Tula/etc, without cleaning, just for fun.
 
Mags said:
These prices haven't changed for a few months:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=APMC223FMJ55&name=PMC+.223+55grn+FMJ+20rd+box&groupid=21
http://palmettostatearmory.com/168.php

I even seen some 62 grain for a good price:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/1101.php

Keep in mind like CHRISTCORP said you can get a better deal buying in bulk off the net so check those same linked sites out for deals on 1k+ rounds.

And if buying off the net ain't your deal Sportsman's Warehouse here has Federal M193 and PMC bronze for 5.99 ALL DAY LONG providing if they can keep it on the shelves. they also have 50 round packs of HSM remanufactured for 12.99 but that's on sale.
Click to expand...
Like I said, if you're willing to buy in bulk, the prices are there. I do buy in bulk. But most people aren't. And if you only buy 10 boxes of $5.99 each ammo, the Shipping/Handling is going to make it closer to $6.50-$7.00. I buy ammo in lots of no less than 1000 rounds. But many people don't. And if you go to the local retailer; including walmart; you can get steel case ammo for $4.50-$5.00 per box; while brass will cost about $6.99-$8.99 for the cheapest. e.g. PMC Bronze.

Now you might not think $2.00 difference in price of ammo is a lot, but that's 50%. I shoot at MINIMUM, 5,000 rounds per year. That's 250 boxes of ammo. Saving $2 PER BOX is a savings of $500. I can buy an entire upper for $500. A bolt only costs $50. A complete BCG is only $125. I could buy another 2000-3000 rounds of ammo. I can do a lot with $500. Point is; even at $2 a box of 20 savings, that is VERY SIGNIFICANT. Now; if you only shoot about 100 rounds a month; "Probably because the price of ammo is a lot", then that's only a savings of about $100. That's not really worth it. But a savings of between $500-$1000 PER YEAR because I'm shooting between 5,000-10,000 rounds, is very significant to me.
 
IMHO brass cased is only worth it if you want match ammo, shoot steel plates, or reload, which I do all three.
 
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