Using Brown Bear/Silver Bear in my LMT & Rock River AR-15s

[BamAlmighty]

The lacquer doesn't melt....

Steel doesn't expand like brass which causes more fouling in the chamber. Eventually this can build up causing a case to stick. You just have to pay extra attention and keep your chamber clean.

I can afford it so I shoot brass cased exclusively, otherwise i'd have no problem with steel cased ammo.

 

[christcorp]

The lacquer doesn't melt....

Steel doesn't expand like brass which causes more fouling in the chamber. Eventually this can build up causing a case to stick. You just have to pay extra attention and keep your chamber clean.

I can afford it so I shoot brass cased exclusively, otherwise i'd have no problem with steel cased ammo.

I "CAN AFFORD" Platinum or Gold plated cases if they made them. That's not to say I would buy them. Not unless I had a "NEED" for them. Which I don't. Brass doesn't provide a NEED for me that Steel Case doesn't provide. I don't do match or competition shooting, I only need a couple of boxes of "SPECIALTY AMMO" for defensive purposes.

The reason I CAN AFFORD just about anything, is because I didn't waste money on things I didn't have to. Do I splurge and spend money on things I don't need? Most definitely. That's 90% of my guns, old cars, high tech crap, etc... But once I have those things, it doesn't mean I have to waste money in areas I don't have to. I.e. Ignorant people will believe that $100 "Monster Cable" make a superior cable and it will make your big screen tv perform better. The educated electronic tech/engineer/consumer, knows that 1's and 0's don't care. That as long as the physical connection on the cable is quality, and that it's shielded from traditional interference, that the $20 cable works EXACTLY THE SAME. "Oh, little sidebar P.S. There is NO SUCH THING as an HD Antenna. It's the same exact antenna as a "Regular" one. They just charge you more. The metal elements resonate based on frequencies. Not the information on the frequency".

Anyway; my point is: You justify and support the use of steel case ammo; yet you say that you don't shoot steel case ammo...... And the reason you DON'T SHOOT steel case ammo, is because you CAN AFFORD BRASS?????? Sorry; but that's pretty lame. Either you've never shot steel case and are just supporting a band wagon; or you intentionally enjoy wasting your money.

This is not to say that everyone should shoot steel case ammo. Some people require the accuracy of reloading or higher quality ammo. Some need the consistency for long range shooting. Some people's weapon simply doesn't play well with certain ammo. Some simply LOVE the HOBBY of reloading. "Reloading .223 and using steel case, is almost a wash". But some really love the hobby. There's a lot of reasons to shoot commercial brass cased ammo. But: "I shoot brass ammo because I can afford it". Sorry; can't buy that one. I can definitely afford a lot of things; but I don't use/buy them simply because I can afford them. If you think brass is BETTER, for YOUR USE, then that's fine. But for the paper puncher; plinker; possibly going after prairie dogs; etc... Steel case suits my needs.

 

[Carter]

If it weren't for brown bear/silver bear I wouldn't own a rifle bigger than a .22. Its the only thing that allows me to shoot enough to enjoy it and practice practice practice.

However, I would prefer brass cased ammo if it were the same price.

 

[Evergreen]

I think I am thoroughly convinced and I am going to start putting some Silver Bear ammo into my $1600 LMT AR-15... My apologies to all the steel case naysayers. Thanks a lot for these great responses, I was really blown away by the in-depth knowledge written in many of the posts here. I suppose I am not so knowledgeable about the mechanics of the DI or Gas Piston rifle systems, but slowly, I am learning more. From the bit of research I have done, I cannot actually see how the steel casings will prove to cause harm or malfunction to my ARs, as long as I keep my rifles cleaned between trips to the range.

I just purchased some Lake City M855 for my AR, but I think I will give some of the Silver Bear 62gr a try and see how it performs. I have a 1:7 twist barrel, so I am thinking the heavier weighted bullets will be a bit more advantageous to use. For all I know, the 62gr Silver Bear may outperform the 55gr Lake City M193 in this 1:7 barrel on my LMT.

I've always was told that cheap brass ammo like PMC has some serious accuracy issues compared to a bit better brass ammo such as LC. Considering, the PMC still is costly, why not just save more money and get Silver Bear. I was reading that Silver Bear actually is on par in accuracy with PMC and some other cheaper brands of brass cased ammo. Does anyone have opinions about that?

Most of my plinking will be at 100/200 yards, so I am not going for long-range marksmanship or competition accuracy. I am just wanting to improve my short range and even CQB (10-50 yard) skills with my ARs. I am thinking Silver Bear would do the job.

I am hoping to get into reloading soon. When that happens I probably will shun the steel ammo, but until then, why put money down the toilet to have brass casings I don't use?

 

[Dr. Leaky]

I tried some Silver Bear HP rounds in my AR and had a lot of feeding problems - due to following this issue on the internet I made the assumption that it was the ammo but now I'm re-thinking this. I was using some milsurp OKAY mags and I'm going to try again with some new Magpuls. The cost factor matters a lot.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

Soviet/Russian mil-spec ammo is steel cased, that's all I need to know. Their military small arms are designed to be reliable above all else and soviet small arms have been combat proven by (unfriendly) armies for decades. Also, I've shot thousands of rounds of it without any problems.

Arguments against steel cased ammo can be distilled down to Paul Helmke and the Brady Bunch's typical blather, "I'm scared of it, so I have never used it, but I'm scared of it so you shouldn't use it either."

 

[wnycollector]

I just got back from the range with my new RRA ATH (SS 18" national match barrel). I brought PMC and Federal Brass cased 55gr FMJ, Silver Bear 62gr HP and Brown Bear 55gr FMJ. The winner of smallest group size...Brown Bear 55gr FMJ. It shot several very nice 2.5-3" 10 shot groups. For $195/1000 rounds Brown Bear may be my new favorite range ammo.

 

[Evergreen]

Nice range report Wny. So you think Brown Bear outperforms Silver Bear? Do you think bullet weights in your particular rifle may have had something to do with modifying the outcome? Or, do you just feel the ammo is of a superior quality?

 

[wnycollector]

I think this rifle really likes this brown bear ammo. In my bcm 14.5" middy silver bear 62gr ammo noses out the brown bear 55gr ammo. In my delton and cmmg rilfes there is no discernible difference.Both "bear" ammo's shoot very well for how inexpensive they are.

When I get some time this summer I will shoot some 55gr and 62gr silver bear and 55 and 62gr brown bear to see if there is a significant difference between them.

 

[migkillertwo]

I am just fed up with ammo prices and need to save money so I can do some more shooting. Can anyone tell me their most honest, unbiased opinion about shooting the Brown Bear and its cousin, Silver Bear, out of your ARs? I have an LMT MRP AR, as well as a Rock River Tac A4 AR. The LMT is 1:7 twist, whereas the Rock River is 1:9, so I would prefer to have a mix of 62gr and 55gr ammo, but most shooting will be done from my LMT, so I would mostly want heavier weight bullets shot out of it. It seems the M855 green-tip ammo is the cheapest 62gr+ weight rounds I can find and those are just outrageous expensive, like over $0.35/ round. I have seen some Silver Bear 62gr Soft-Points going for $0.22/round.

So, whats the scoop? Should I just stay so far from any steel-cased lacquered ammo or considering the prices of ammo, be willing to make concessions and start using this stuff for my plinking ammo.

I know these are some nice quality ARs I have, especially the LMT, and I have heard the horror stories of steel casing scratching up the chamber, but I'd like to hear from various people here their opinion about this issue. One thing I know is the Silver Bear is Zinc-Plated, so I was thinking that may prevent the steel on aluminum/steel contact that would happen with steel ammo that is not plated like Wolf.

For general plinking, I would use brown bear or the newest WPA (wolf performance) ammunition from Barnaul.

Some people here say you shouldn't take the risk with an expensive gun like that.

I happen to hold a completely contrary idea.

Any gun that costs more than 800$ damn well better eat any in-spec ammo I feed it. Battle rifles as expensive as an RRA or LMT better take whatever abuse I have to doll out and then some. No self-defense firearm ought to be "babied"

Some have said that steel-casings are harder on extractors than brass cased. While this is technically true, the problem is greatly overstated. Steel cases are made of very mild steel. They're only harder on the extractor because the chamber does foul up quicker, and hence it will make extraction harder. But this shouldn't be a problem in any carbine-length gas system. I can't say whether it will be problematic in a mid-length or rifle length gas system tho.

 

[Quentin]

No problems using Wolf/Tula/Herters 55 and 62gr in my ArmaLite and Daniel Defense so for practice and the range why not use the 20 cent stuff. The soft steel case is not going to hurt your chamber so the bulk of my shooting is with the cheap stuff.

I agree with Tony, there's something wrong with an AR that won't shoot this stuff.

 

[TonyAngel]

Just for informational purposes, I'll share my theory on why steel cases stick in some rifles. I had, for a long time, believed that it was because the steel cases didn't seal up like brass, causing the chamber to get really dirty and causing the cases to stick. I don't believe that any longer and for one specific reason. I stopped cleaning my ARs like I used to. In fact, I have one AR that's coming around 5000 rounds without having been cleaned and it's had a mix of M193, reloads and Silver Bear run through it. ARs don't NEED to be kept clean like many believe. It just needs to be lubed or should I say, not run dry.

Anyway, my theory is that steel cases don't expand like brass does, and conversely, it doesn't contract like brass does either. In other words, it contracts more slowly, making the extraction of steel cases a bit more sensitive to the rifle being overgassed. Over gassed ARs are not uncommon either. I've confirmed this to my satisfaction by "fixing" several ARs that were having problems extracting steel cases. The cure can run from very simple to a bit more complicated.

First, you should be sure that you have a quality extractor spring. I get mine from Bravo Company. They are very stiff and last a good long while. If you still have problems with extraction, you can try a heavier buffer to slow the cycling down. If that doesn't do it, then you have to start tinkering with choking off some of the gas.

In any case, if your rifle has a good ejection pattern and tosses cases from about the 2:00 position to the 4:00 position, odds are that you won't have any problems with steel. If your rifle ejects the brass forward, you have a lot of gas moving through your system and a high bolt velocity. If this is you, you may have problems extracting steel cases.

This is all just based on my observations and experience.

 

[Kwanger]

A lot of the time when people have problems with steel cased ammo, they tend to focus on the fact that it has a steel case, which must be out of spec, or is just plain old Russian/Chinese rubbish, or whatever. They tend to tar it all with the same brush - steel = steel, end of story.

What people should bear in mind is rather than thinking steel=rubbish, is that just like brass, not all steel cased ammo is created equal. A lot of its bad rap IMO comes from the fact that the most accessible storefront retailers such as Wally world (for instance) usually stocks the Tulammo brand, and it is this what most people will go out and get when they are just trying it out.

The Tulammo stuff (and its offshoots) is notoriously weak and inconsistent - much more so than the other major brand of steel ammo, i.e. the "Bear" line, produced at Barnaul, which, while still weaker than its western counterpart ammo, is positively punchy when compared with Tulammo/Herters/old "normal" Wolf (as opposed to Wolf Military Classic), etc. But rather than go out and try a different brand of steel, a lot of people try it once, have an issue, and then that's it - all steel is 5h1t. It's a bit like saying "Had some trouble with my Federal AE223....that's it, I'm not buying US made brass ammo anymore".

A lot of the problems have got less to do with the actual steel cartridge case and more to do with the actual producing factory - and in my experience of tens of thousands of all sorts of steel case, if buying Russian, go with the Bear brand (or as a poster mentioned above, the new WPA from Wolf, which is now produced at the Barnaul factory not Tula) for less chance of disappointment.

 

[carbine85]

I prefer the Silver Bear over the PMC. I just finished 500 rounds of the PMC 55 gr. I don't think it's as accurate as the Silver Bear, however I do have some good brass for future reloading.
I haven't had any function issues with steel in any of my rifles.