Using Vinegar in Wet Tumbling

[JohnMc]

but it will react with copper oxides and zinc oxides on the surface of the brass to create copper acetate, zinc acetate and hydrogen gas.

Acid plus metal oxides yields the salt of metal/acid and water. Strong enough acid plus metal is what yields hydrogen gas.
For example, copper oxide and a weak sulfuric acid solution:
CuO(s) + H2SO4(aq)

CuSO4(aq) + H2O(l)
(s) - solid
(aq) - aqueous, dissolved in water
(l) - liquid

Making hydrogen gas with HCl and magnesium strips is something I remember fondly from freshman chemistry, which was during the Reagan administration, so the acid could have been sulfuric; it's been a minute.

 

[JohnMc]

WE ARE NOT HOARDERS!!!! We're Pac-Rats...

I'm a bit of both.

 

[Walkalong]

I'm a bit of both.

Me too probably, definitely a serious pack rat. You just have do a mental "inventory" of all the stuff once in a while so you remember you have it when the need arises.

I changed out the bearings in the kids skate with "speed bearings" about three decades ago, still have the old bearings, and know where they are.

 

[AJC1]

The brass comes out really shiny using pins and detergent alone, with four hour runtimes.

Is the acid used primarily to shorten runtimes?

A do more in less time kind of thing?

Using the standard lemishine mix and dawn with pins 30 minutes is plenty for brass that was clean before. If I have brand new range pickups I go an hour, and if they don't come out spotless I run the unperfect ones in the next batch. Not really finding cases anymore that are long term stuck in the mud....

 

[9mmepiphany]

The brass comes out really shiny using pins and detergent alone, with four hour runtimes.

That seems a little excessive. That's how long I run cases when I'm dry tumbling... in toasted Groats

I usually run my wet tumbler 60-90 minutes...mostly because I'm doing other things at the same time

Is the acid used primarily to shorten runtimes?

A do more in less time kind of thing?

Mostly the Lemishine (I use citric acid) helps to break down the carbon/soot on the cases. The detergent (I use Armorall Wash & Wax) helps the dirt slide off keeps it in suspension to be poured off. I don't use pins at all, because I don't deprime the cases prior, and the exterior of the cases are getting just as shinny due to rubbing against the other cases...but I'm only doing handgun cases

 

[The Glockodile]

That seems a little excessive. That's how long I run cases when I'm dry tumbling... in toasted Groats

I usually run my wet tumbler 60-90 minutes...mostly because I'm doing other things at the same time

I'll try a shorter runtime next.

I was mostly following the tumbler's instructions (they quoted 3 - 4 hours with a certain weight of brass and pins) and letting it run 2AM to 6AM in the garage, on a timer...

Mostly the Lemishine (I use citric acid) helps to break down the carbon/soot on the cases. The detergent (I use Armorall Wash & Wax) helps the dirt slide off keeps it in suspension to be poured off. I don't use pins at all, because I don't deprime the cases prior, and the exterior of the cases are getting just as shinny due to rubbing against the other cases...but I'm only doing handgun cases

I still have almost a whole gallon of Citranox from when I was playing with Ultrasonic Cleaning.

I'll see what that does.

 

[JohnMc]

I still have almost a whole gallon of Citranox from when I was playing with Ultrasonic Cleaning.

I hadn't heard of it so I looked up the SDS (they don't call 'em MSDS anymore).
They don't have to give the exact formula because of trade secret reasons.
Anyway, assuming it's the Alconox branded stuff, it's:
10-25% citric acid by weight
2.5-10% glycolic acid by weight.
Glycolic is a slightly stronger acid than acetic acid, in the same vein as citric. Sounds like good stuff.

 

[The Glockodile]

I hadn't heard of it so I looked up the SDS (they don't call 'em MSDS anymore).
They don't have to give the exact formula because of trade secret reasons.
Anyway, assuming it's the Alconox branded stuff, it's:
10-25% citric acid by weight
2.5-10% glycolic acid by weight.

It’s stuff that‘s used in labs, with real ultrasonic cleaners that are true to their wattage claims.

It’s irritating to one’s skin if not washed off thoroughly.

Glycolic is a slightly stronger acid than acetic acid, in the same vein as citric. Sounds like good stuff.

Not trying to be a wiseass, but I’m just waiting for someone to throw in pKa values and actually explain its relevance to this level of bubbatech

 

[JohnMc]

It’s stuff that‘s used in labs, with real ultrasonic cleaners that are true to their wattage claims.

It’s irritating to one’s skin if not washed off thoroughly.



Not trying to be a wiseass, but I’m just waiting for someone to throw in pKa values and actually explain its relevance to this level of bubbatech

I looked at the pKa values but declined to bring them up.

 

[JohnMc]

It’s stuff that‘s used in labs, with real ultrasonic cleaners that are true to their wattage claims.

I used a lot of the Alconox glass cleaner back when... It is the freaking bomb.

 

[The Glockodile]

I can't believe people wet tumble for as long as an hour. It just peens the case mouths.

That usually suggests an insufficient volume of pins.

 

[Buzznrose]

Me too probably, definitely a serious pack rat. You just have do a mental "inventory" of all the stuff once in a while so you remember you have it when the need arises.

I changed out the bearings in the kids skate with "speed bearings" about three decades ago, still have the old bearings, and know where they are.

I’m guilty of keeping stuff I replaced with aftermarket. Don’t really know why…I typically replace Glock OEam sights, slide lock, and mag releases…and I keep the OEM ones…which is really kinda dumb since I have at least a dozen of each in a parts case.

 

[westernrover]

I'd keep less stuff if you guys were more willing to buy the stuff that you keep.

 

[Walkalong]

I typically replace Glock OEam sights, slide lock, and mag releases…and I keep the OEM ones…

I have all the old parts I have replaced/upgraded in guns. Labeled of course.

 

[WeekendReloader]

Although both serve the same purpose as a weak acid, Lemishine sure smells a lot better than vinegar.

 

[Barmcd]

I’ve found water makes a difference too. We have very hard water, when I used it straight out of the outdoor faucet, the brass came out very dull. When I used softened water from the house, it had a greenish cast to it. I finally started using distilled water.

 

[DMW1116]

As a recovering radiographer, I kinda like the smell of vinegar, the same way I like the smell of gasoline. It’s familiar.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I’ve found water makes a difference too. We have very hard water, when I used it straight out of the outdoor faucet, the brass came out very dull. When I used softened water from the house, it had a greenish cast to it. I finally started using distilled water.

I've found that you can counteract the effect of hard water by varying the amount of critic acid used. I have hard water and, using the F.A.R.T., I find what works for me is a .45ACP case of critic acid per load...with water filled to the end of the parallel sides

 

[Blue68f100]

Yes water makes a difference. When I switched over from well water (acidic) to county water I had to double the amount of citric acid I was adding.

 

[1KPerDay]

Yep, while I tend to use polish and tumble my pistol brass all super shiny, I don't even tumble my 6 Dasher cases long enough to get all of the tarnish off, then load them again, shoot great.
View attachment 1183575View attachment 1183576

I assume you mark them with a line so you can spot/identify them easier when you're picking them up?

 

[Walkalong]

Yes sir, and a blue line or cross on the case head to help mark and to keep track of times fired. My chamber has a black line in the middle and the head on my bolt is blue.

 

[EMC45]

I'm not a chemist nor a scientist (I can barely speak English)... My method is - old Maxwell House coffee can with snap lid, a generous squirt of Dawn (generic equivalent), a splash of lemon juice from the fridge, sometimes a little white vinegar and hot water as hot as the tap will go. Shake like a maniac for a few minutes and rinse with cold water till it runs clear. Dry on an old ratty beach towel in the garage. Done.

The Dawn cuts through carbon and bullet lube and the vinegar/lemon juice will get the other darks spot off as well.

 

[JohnMc]

I’ve found water makes a difference too. We have very hard water, when I used it straight out of the outdoor faucet, the brass came out very dull. When I used softened water from the house, it had a greenish cast to it. I finally started using distilled water.

Water softening is usually ion exchange of sodium chloride, aka table salt, for whatever is in the water. Soft water in such lingo means it allows a good lather with soap, "soap" as opposed to "detergent". (In modern American English, we don't generally make the distinction, but soap in the strictest sense is a metal ion and a fatty acid, from the reaction of a fat with a base, like tallow and lye, for lye soap. The fatty acid will precipitate with some metal ions, like calcium, for "hard" water. Getting the calcium out by ion exchange makes the soap work fine; "soft" water.)
The green is probably copper chloride.

 

[DanK3Pos]

I use citric acid in the form of Lemi-Shine but may try vinegar if I ever run out. I hand tumble in an old milk jug or soda bottle for about 10 minutes, the rinse thoroughly and oven dry. My brass is squeaky clean and shiny after washing but the oven dry darkens it a little.

Add some Armor All Wash & Wax to the mix, that will keep them shiny. Also, keep the temp on the oven as low as possible.

 

[JohnMc]

Add some Armor All Wash & Wax to the mix, that will keep them shiny. Also, keep the temp on the oven as low as possible.

I think the carnuba wax coating keeps them from oxidizing. I've never stripped it off any to compare for a real experiment, so it's just a pet theory for now.