USPSA RO Killed In AD

[Good Ol' Boy]

I'm sure a lot of you guys have already heard about this but I figured I'd share since I didn't see a thread on it.

There are multiple outlets that have coverage on this incident but from what I've read it seems the shooter missed the holster after the make ready and dropped the gun on concrete. Gun didn't have a FPS and RO caught the brunt of it.

Whether or not this was actually the case its still a good reminder to slow down after the time stops. No extra down points for quick re-holstering after the stage.

Sad state of affairs...


https://gatdaily.com/uspsa-range-officer-shot/

 

[kneedtospeed]

Terrible
Prayers going out

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Gonna be a few rule changes in the shooting sports in the coming year I bet.

 

[Jim Watson]

There has been a lot said about those unsafe CZ match guns.
There has only been a little said about the habit of CZ shooters installing weak springs and extended firing pins.

 

[Zerodefect]

There has been a lot said that the proper way to carry a DA/SA Cz is on the half catch notch, or cocked and locked.

Weak FP springs and extended pins are bad MOJO though. Shame on the guys that use those. If that's the case here, we'll hear about it soon enough.

Sounds like this pistol landed on a down hammer, not on it's nose. Unconfirmed so far, but eventually, the location of the concrete scar on the pistol will be listed in a report.


The forum that knows best, went dark, out of (misplaced) respect. Nice gesture though.

 

[huntsman]

So the video implied the guy reached for falling gun and that’s when it went off but then also addressed drop safe guns, any clarity on which or what the cause was?

 

[wiscoaster]

More grist for the anti mill. Y'all be careful out there.

 

[Zerodefect]

It hit the deck.

It wasn't a catch n boom.

 

[GEM]

Shooting sports have some risk. I had a guy put a 45 ACP in the ground, about 12 inches from my foot when I was score keeping an IDPA match. He was holstering is gun (a 1911), didn't put the safety on and had his finger on the trigger. Then the idiot started to wave it - Wah, happin? The SO (a tough old sheriff) has to grab him.

USPSA's emphasis on microsecond differences in timing might have contributed to such habits as too fast holstering. There is a big debate about that as well as having guns that are not drop safe for the same microsecond differences in performance.

The tragic accident is not to far from me.

 

[egd]

Being mostly a uspsa shooter, the idea that the emphasis on speed would have contributed to the accident is ridiculous. At "make ready" you are not on the clock at all. If I was to guess I'd say he was thinking about his stage plan and where he was going first, instead of making sure the gun was in the holster.
If anyone is promoting that ridiculous idea I'd bet they are an idpa fanboy that just wants to get a dig in. We are all just playing a shooting game, some just can't admit it.

 

[Jim Watson]

Not everybody realizes that. We had a leg shot by a guy who "speed holstered" his TSO, cocked and not locked in the face of the RO calling "Stop!" Apparently hit the gun holder at an angle and the trigger guard bracket hit the 2 lb trigger.
I can see this shooter getting hasty and dropping his gun.

Also, every once in a while we will have to point out that "Unload and show clear" is not a timed activity. Being able to eject a cartridge and snatch it out of midair is a marvelous display of dexterity, but it doesn't let the RO see that the gun is empty.

 

[Zerodefect]

Unload, show clear? I lock the slide back slowly. Roll the live round into my hand. Then pull the magazine. Slow and obvious. If my knees are getting sore. Otherwise I let the live round fly.

 

[Jim Watson]

Unload, show clear? I lock the slide back slowly. Roll the live round into my hand. Then pull the magazine. Slow and obvious. If my knees are getting sore. Otherwise I let the live round fly.

That is awful close to "reverse clearing" which results in a loud noise when told "If clear, hammer down..."
I get the magazine out first, as do the other shooters, ROs and SOs in my area.

 

[GEM]

If it is the case that USPSA designed holster failed to lock the gun and that caused the drop (as described by folks who were there), then the microsecond gaming race of the sport is a contributor as it leads to an unsafe holster design.

That's not being a fanboy, USPSA fanboy. Sure it's a game, but if pursuit of winning makes it unsafe then the fanboys of that game have some responsibility. That being said, the odds of being hurt are low. Nothing like what the fanboys of Football will accept for the destruction of their favorite players.

IDPA asks for holsters that have a touch of realism to them. It's still a game. I used my carry holster as I wanted to practice gun handling with some transfer to EDC. YMMV.

 

[egd]

I shoot some idpa also, I just don't like it as much as uspsa and steel challenge. And honestly fanboys on both sides condemn the others.
I don't think it's right to blame the sport for a screw-up of the competitor. This could have just as easily happened to an idpa shooter thinking about where he'd expend that extra round or make a tac reload instead of putting first things first.

 

[WestKentucky]

Work hat on... we have an incident report without much meat behind it. We need more details about what actually happened. We know the end result, and we know the start of the scenario, but everything else is pretty well a blur. We can’t 5-why this or do a proper root cause analysis of any other type either without details. Work hat off...

If this is as multiple people have assumed...

Speed games have bred some things that are incredible, but most things in life are a trade-off. We trade into speed of draw by sacrificing weapon retention. We trade reliability into super duper reliability by sacrificing safety features on/in the gun. Everything is judged by score and score is a measure of speed. Why are people acting like they are suprised that this happened. If you take nitro glycerine and make it more and more sensitive with every design change then nobody is surprised when it goes boom, and that’s what has happened here. Poor culture plays into a fast and showy stage start with little emphasis on proper readiness but more about style doing it. Poor holster by design played into a drop after a mild fumble. Poor mechanical safety let the gun go off. Why do we have a poor holster and poor mechanical safety? To shave off a quarter of a second in time. And a guy is dead because of it.

Anybody wonder why I don’t play shooting games? Because I see the nitro going boom and I don’t want to be there when it happens.

 

[egd]

WK you are right that we don't know all the details. Both sports determine the winner by who shoots the most accurately in the shortest time. I don't think it's right to blame the sport for a mental lapse of the player.
Speed is not the problem.
eta-like I said before, at that point he wasn't on the clock. For whatever reason he just didn't holster properly.

 

[WestKentucky]

WK you are right that we don't know all the details. Both sports determine the winner by who shoots the most accurately in the shortest time. I don't think it's right to blame the sport for a mental lapse of the player.
Speed is not the problem.
eta-like I said before, at that point he wasn't on the clock. For whatever reason he just didn't holster properly.

Your right, don’t blame the sport. The sport is nothing more than a bunch of rules and regulations to establish a game. The blame lays with the competitors and the rule makers. The rule makers should make rules where the game is safer. The competitors should quit pushing the rules. If Tanfoglio guns are as unsafe as people make them out to be then they should either be banned from use or not be modified in ways to make them more unsafe like by adding an extended firing pin or weaker springs. Perhaps a presence indicative safety should be required meaning a Glock style trigger where a finger has to be on the trigger or a 1911 or XD style grip safety.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Not everybody realizes that. We had a leg shot by a guy who "speed holstered" his TSO, cocked and not locked in the face of the RO calling "Stop!" Apparently hit the gun holder at an angle and the trigger guard bracket hit the 2 lb trigger.
I can see this shooter getting hasty and dropping his gun.

Also, every once in a while we will have to point out that "Unload and show clear" is not a timed activity. Being able to eject a cartridge and snatch it out of midair is a marvelous display of dexterity, but it doesn't let the RO see that the gun is empty.

And my range has some instructors/ROs who demonstrate that constantly. Not my place to call them out, but I disapprove. Even at the current ammo prices, it's just not worth taking any risks over a sigle round of ammo. Let it hit the ground; you can pick it up later.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Being mostly a uspsa shooter, the idea that the emphasis on speed would have contributed to the accident is ridiculous. At "make ready" you are not on the clock at all. If I was to guess I'd say he was thinking about his stage plan and where he was going first, instead of making sure the gun was in the holster.
If anyone is promoting that ridiculous idea I'd bet they are an idpa fanboy that just wants to get a dig in. We are all just playing a shooting game, some just can't admit it.

I get the sense that was aimed at me.

I mainly shoot IDPA but occasional USPSA. In both camps I see folks not paying attention to holstering, although it does seem to be more of a thing in the "race" classes in USPSA. Thats not me talking crap about the sport of USPSA its just what I see, both in person and of the thousands of videos online.

Guns aside one thing I have always had trouble understanding is those race "holsters" that are essentially just trigger guards. I wonder if maybe that was the type of holster the user in question was using. I have ZERO experience with them and know nothing about them so I won't so anything one way or the other.

 

[Jim Watson]

With the hammer down, he was likely in Production or Carry Optics which require a conventional holster, not one of those race racks.
I have seen people to miss their holster but they kept hold of the gun and tried again.
I look my gun into the holster.

 

[Zerodefect]

You're talking about the skeleton type holsters that only touch the trigger guard? Like the DAA Alpha X and such. That would be a bit freaky. It's actually a very secure holster. When you're done with your stage, there's even a hidden little lever that locks the pistol in, so it won't come out even if you walk into a table.

Most kydex Glock holsters pretty much only latch onto the trigger guard. They just won't drop the pistol if that fails. (assuming that you aren't up side-down)

Hate to go blame storming, but there were two accidents here, that added up to this.

 

[egd]

No Good Ol' boy, it wasn't aimed at you. It looks to me that all you did was report it. You and others are right though about people being in too much of a hurry after the course of fire in both sports. I am not an official ro but have occasionally had to run a few folks in local matches while the ro had to load or something. I had one pop the round out, pull the trigger and was almost in his holster before I could say if you are.... I had him pull it out and show me the empty chamber. I make no comments on the guns because I've never had one and I shoot only pcc, or bug in idpa occasionally.

 

[MaduroBU]

I look at this example and think of it as a reminder to all of us that shooting a safe match is the only real goal. Everything else, from engaging all of the targets in a cohesive fashion (me) to achieving M or GM status (guys on this forum) is an entirely secondary objective. That's true no matter which ruleset you use to play the game, whether it's IDPA, USPSA, 3-gun, 2-gun, F-class, BR, sporting clays, skeet, trap 50m free, biathlon et c. There is no set of accolades in the shooting sports which can make up for endangering, let along harming or killing, another human being.

I think that this question is easier for me because I'm not good. If some day I made B-class, I'd be thrilled. It is easy for me to focus on being safe because the extra second that it takes me to draw my "MidwayUSA Custom" G19 from my retention holster (in OPEN no less) isn't holding me back. As folks get more competitive and by extension more familiar with performing almost reflexive shooting motions in a safe and controlled manner, the risk of focusing upon the sport rather than the safety aspect is greater. I feel safe in assuming that the participants in this tragedy were both exceptionally safe shooters who were doing almost everything correctly in the fashion that they had been for years. This isn't a "ruleset A" vs "ruleset B" brawl, but an opportunity for everyone to reflect due to the danger that the prioritization of score over safety can pose to any of us.