Utah mall shooting lessons learned

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hso

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This video and others from the Utah mall shooting give us valuable information on the situation in the mall and what we might learn from it. There is a video live from inside the mall showing LE moving and communicating and using handguns and shotguns to move up and kill the gunman. There is an excellent witness interview with a store owner that helped direct the off duty officer to the gunman. http://kutv.com/video/[email protected] Please look at all the videos you can before commenting.

What I take away from this is a couple of things. The off duty officer, much like any of us, was limited in the ammunition he was carrying. He engaged out of a professional and personal since of duty and honor. We have no such professional obligation like Officer Hammond, but we may choose to do so out of a sense of community and honor. If you've made the decision before hand that you will use your weapon to defend others in this kind of situation then you should carry additonal ammunition. If you've made the decision to use your weapon to defend yourself and those in your care and that you will break contact and withdraw then this may not be needed. Movement and communication are the other key point I take away. If you are involved in a incident like this you must keep what you say simple and clear so LE and others know who you are and what you are doing there. If they ask for your participation you should pay attention to their communication style. "Moving Up", "Come To Me", "Cover Me" are heard in the tapes and they are standard language used in training I've attended.
 
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I hope that the public will realize that CCW can and will save lives. Had that off-duty officer not been armed, the Gunman could have wreaked much more carnage.
 
This makes me think about carrying more ammunition then I do. In the summer I often carry a J Frame with only 5 rounds. In a situation such as this every shot counts, and having an extra reload could be very inmportant.
 
I watched several videos on that site, I like how they have long uncut videos, as well as the std news reports available, I wish our stations did that.

A few thoughts...

Witness helping engage officer: Good for him, too bad w/ his vantage point he wasn't a trained CCW, note how he felt helpless up there from above.

Family Comments: Seem genuinely saddened by the events, but seem to keep harping on the point of 'who signed for his guns' seemingly displacing blame away from who pulled the trigger, multiple times, intentionally, not to mention the fact he could have legally bought the shotgun and done significant damage with it, regardless of having a handgun, so while it is important to trace the weapons, etc., I think the emphasis should be on the fact this kid was determined to do what he did, and would have found a way to do it, regardless of the means he used to obtain his weapons of choice. But if whoever did anything illegal to help him obtain the handgun/ammo should be prosecuted if caught.

Ogden Officer: Obvious kudos to him, as others havve mentioned, I wonder how much more effective he could have been if he had more than 6 shots on his person, maybe 15, 30, 45 rounds he might have been able to bring it to an end much sooner, not to take anything away from what he did, as he did what he could, and needed to do, for sure.

Emergency Alert: Seems like people knew to call 911 etc., but seems also like someone mentioned people still coming into the mall. I can envision that people close to an exit would get the hell out, but it also seems that anyone nearby w/out an exit simply hid in the stores they were near. I wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea to have an emergency/police alarm next to the common fire alarm in public places that could alert people to evacuate possibly, but also put up lights or sirens outside the structure warning people not to enter the structure during an event like that.

Security?: What was the mall security doing during all of this? Even if they aren't armed to engage a suspect like this, they DO have cameras everywhere, what is the capability of security personell to communicate with officers on the scene to help coordinate efforts to resolve the threat? And as with above emergency alert is concerned, they could have implemented the alert, spoke to people over an intercom or something to instruct them what to do, patched in someone from the police station if need be, or if properly equipped (really dreaming now) patched a video to a police command center, just thoughts for this or other possible scenarios in the future.

Have to go now, but those were some of the things that came to my mind after watching several of the videos...except of course the emotional feeling of having to hear accounts of the tragedy, sadness for the victims and their families, anger over the incident happening, and thoughts of what we can all do as citizens to prevent evil from prevailing.

Karz

Edit: Police response: After watching some more videos, I see that the initial and overall police response was rather quick, one quote I believe was 1st responders on the scene within 3 minutes, suspect contained within 6 minutes or something to that effect. Good job guys!
 
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Yeah, I've never been an "extra ammo" kind of guy and I think it's mostly because when I was an LEO we had wheelguns so the idea of having 12+ rounds in a magazine makes some internal part of me just automatically go "hey, that's a lot of ammo".

BUT, these days I'm thinkin that I might need to adjust my thinkin'

Ordered some additional magazines for each of my carry guns. :cool:
 
A situation like this kind of puts the "you'll never need more than ___ rounds in a gunfight" thinking to rest, doesn't it?
 
The Ogden officer's name is Ken Hammond, not Herndon.

The point about sufficient ammunition is a good one. It applies even if one chooses to not actively engage a shooter; the shooter may choose to engage you or there may be multiple threats. I have re-evavuated the amount of ammo I carry as a result of this shooting.

Identifying myself as a "Good Guy" if I were in the same situation as Officer Hammond has taken on new importance. Hammond was very concerned that the SLC sergeant would mistake him for a "Bad Guy"; I am not as clean-cut as Hammond. I am giving this some serious thought. Getting taken out by friendly-fire doesn't appeal.
 
This has always been a concern of mine...long hair tied back, black bandana, beard, engineer boots, leather vest or jacket in most cases.
I would expect to eat some gravel if not get shot in such a situation.

Biker
 
This has always been a concern of mine...long hair tied back, black bandana, beard, engineer boots, leather vest or jacket in most cases.

Biker: With the exception of the long hair and beard, you've just described what a lot of the cops around here look like when they're out riding on their days off. Last Xmas we got our chief a really nice leather seat for his new Harley so he and his wife could ride in comfort. ;)

I think I'd be more inclined to evaluate you based on your actions rather than your appearance, although you're right, in those first few critical seconds I wouldn't want to get a rookie cop confused as to whose side I was on. During Bikes, Blues and Barbecue here in Fayetteville, I meet lots of bikers who are off duty officers, and the ones who aren't will treat you with respect if you treat them with respect. I generally have more problems with the kids who dress up like members of a street gang.

I usually carry my duty weapon and two extra mags when I'm off duty.
 
Yup, we have a couple of Blue Knights who drop by the shop after hours every now and then to mooch a brew or three out of the fridge and talk about scoots.
We ain't all that different when all is said and done.
However, in a town like SLC, I'd really worry about getting holed before I had a chance to show that underneath all the ugly, I was one of the Good Guys.
I figure my safest bet would be to lay on my belly and make mall carpet Snow Angels.

Biker
 
hso said;
If you've made the decision before hand that you will use your weapon to defend others in this kind of situation then you should carry additonal ammunition. If you've made the decision to use your weapon to defend yourself and those in your care and that you will break contact and withdraw then this may not be needed.

How many rounds does your break contact drill require? I carry a 1911 with 8 rounds, a spare magazine and a Model 36 with an additional 5 rounds everytime I leave the house. My point is, you don't know how much ammo you might need to handle any situation you may encounter. If you carry a firearm, you should carry a reload. Better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it.

Movement and communication are the other key point I take away. If you are involved in a incident like this you must keep what you say simple and clear so LE and others know who you are and what you are doing there.

There is a very real danger to everyone involved if you run to the sound of the guns. Virtually everyone has a cell phone these days. The calls into the 911 dispatch center are very likely to say that it's a terrorist attack with two gunmen if you draw your weapon and charge into the fray. That information quite probably with your description, will be forwarded by radio or MDC to the responding officers. You are likely to be mis-identified as a bad guy before the police ever arrive. This will have bad consequences for you. If you are carrying a firearm, why aren't you carrying a cell phone? Before you move from where you are at you need to call the police department and identify yourself, give a good description of your appearance. Officer Hammond had his wife call 9111 for him. Fratricide is a very real issue. You not only have to worry about the police, but have to worry about other armed citizens, who won't have the police dispatcher giving them your description. I would recommend that you not call 911, but take the time to find out a non emergency number in your PD that you can call. 911 is going to be quickly overloaded and there may be several telecommunicators taking all the calls. There is a good chance your information may not make it to the responding officers until it's too late. Once you get through to the PD, stay on the phone. Most phones have a hands free or driving mode option. turn it on and stick it in your shirt pocket. The information you can continue to provide will be invaluable to the responding officers. That is pretty much the limit of what you can do to identify yourself to the responding officers.

Now you have to deal with the problem of identifying yourself to other CCW holders who also may be responding. Bystanders may direct you after another armed citizen or off duty or plainclothes officer who is also responding. Now you have an interesting exercise in IFF (Identification of Friend and Foe). Is the guy the bystanders just directed you towards the gunman, another gunman, or a good guy responding? How will you know? What is your plan to find out? A gunfight between two friendlies is not unknown and unfortuanately an all too common occurance when the situation is very fluid and the participants aren't wearing uniforms.

If you are involved in a incident like this you must keep what you say simple and clear so LE and others know who you are and what you are doing there. If they ask for your participation you should pay attention to their communication style. "Moving Up", "Come To Me", "Cover Me" are heard in the tapes and they are standard language used in training I've attended.

The principles involved in moving aren't all that complicated, but if you haven't trained on them you're going to be hurting. Most people practice on the square range. Unfortuantely, that's all that's available to many. But quality force on force training is available. Get some. This isn't the kind of skill you can pick up by watching actors do it on the silver screen.

Years ago in another life, I used to have a trick exercise I used to teach this lesson to Infantrymen. It was a simple platoon attack. One squad of OPFOR in a defensive position v. a platoon of BLUFOR. The platoon would attak, take out the defensive position and probably take only a handful of casualties. They would be gathered around the AAR site smiling, patting each other on the back and feeling very good about themselves. I would start the AAR, about a third of the way through, I would reveal that the OPFOR had no batteries in their MILES transmitters. The grins and the general good feeling the victorious platoon felt about their tactical abilities stopped as soon as they realized that the three casualties they sustained during the attack were all fratricide. The rest of the AAR was devoted to who killed is buddy and how it happened.

If this can happen to trained Infantrymen who are all in the same uniform, fighting a foe who are all in a readily identifyable different uniform, what do you think the chances are it can happen to a group of people who have never seen each other before?

I'd like to remind everyone, that a CCW holder has no duty to act. Your CCW didn't come with a peace officers commission and a badge, and it certainly didn't come with a red cape and blue tights. Before you decide to get involved you need to take all of the points I just made into consideration and choke down the emotion that will make you want to respond and think real hard and rationally about if you can really make a difference or if your response may just make a bad situation worse. You should think really hard about what you actually know. It's one thing to respond if you see the bad guy in the act. It's a totally different situation if you run to the sound of gunfire.

I'm not going to tell anyone what to do. Everyone will have to make that decision for themselves. But you should make an educated decision. Good intentions will be cold comfort to your family when you are bleeding out from a sucking chest wound after you were shot by mistake. And good intentions aren't worth much in court in the wrongful death suit you'll inevitably face after you shot the wrong guy in a case of mistaken identity.

Jeff
 
Security?: What was the mall security doing during all of this?

they move pretty slow when carrying a briefcase full of steel plates
 
How much is enough? An infantry platoon behind you is a good start.

I carry the same 1911 as the officer and two spare mags. I have considered recently dropping one mag for a surefire flashlight. I think that the light is at least as likely to be helpful in real life as rounds 18-25.

I'm also going to look a lot harder at keeping an SKS folded in my car.

I have carried many times in the trolley, and until recently I had a ponytail as well. I have wondered if it had been me, what I would have had to do to keep myself from getting killed.
 
RE: Jeff's comments

All good points to consider. There's just no easy answer to these situations, either as LE or as civilians, and certainly most civilians have significantly less training than most LE, whether regarding engaging the suspect, protecting yourself from and/or working with friendly fire/LE, and potential moral and legal consequences of your decisions.

-------

Sometimes you might be in a position to choose whether you should act or not, and have a chance to decide how to act, if at all, i.e. engaging the suspect proactively. However, I'm sure some people on the board, including myself wonder what we would do, or be able to do, if the threat was thrust upon us directly, where the suspect in this, or a different scenario, were to engage us directly, leaving us with a primary choice of defending ourselves or being at the mercy of the suspect.

I also think that some people may be thinking that in the ideal role one might play in saving additional lives, if they were in an ideal position to stop a threat without endangering themselves or others further, but that is not to take away from the wisdom to caution people against foolish and potentially deadly behavior, especially given that it's not always the 'ideal' scenario described above, you may be forced to make decisions that have potentially deadly results EITHER way, whether you choose to engage, or choose not to engage, either for you, or others.

I'd like to think that most of the people on a forum like this are on the same team, although everyone may have different ideas of their capabilities and responsibilities, and I'm personally thankful to find a place like this where people can share their views, find some commonality, learn from each other's wisdom, as well as from views we don't agree with.

Thanks for the opportunity to be part of the discussion.

Karz
 
Jeff thanks for your comments they are very sobering.

I don't think I would run to the gunfire. I think I would find a good place to sit tight so that if the bad guy shows up I would be able to keep him out of whatever wing of the mall I happen to be in. Keeping these guys contained is really half the battle. If someone pulled a gun and was obviously killing unarmed bystanders within close proximity to where I was I would seek cover and return fire. If I had the drop on the shooter like Brendan McKown did I would just take the shot and end things ASAP.

Joking aside this might be the only situation where one of the famous CCW shields might come in handy. :what:
 
Biker sez:

"I figure my safest bet would be to lay on my belly and make mall carpet Snow Angels."

Funniest thing I've seen all week. :D

The truth, too, for a lot of us.

Sawdust
 
Good points Jeff. The big fear is how do you identify yourself as a good guy to police and other good guys.

For me personally if I was at the spot the shooting occured I think I would try to stop the threat, but if I heard gunfire people screaming I'm taking cover and making my way to an exit or backroom with a exit near by and hold up. Not sure I want to run out and get shot by tag team kill squad, one guy shoots inside while picking people off that come out the exit.

If I did make it out I can't see myself going back in, I havent had that type of training and there are waaaay too many unknowns. I think I would be of better use staying out the way and maybe on the phone with the local LEO. Maybe get close to an exit and try to help people exit that way and if need be be prepared to stop the threat. The police were on the scene in this incident in about 3 mins that very quick and you could quickly find yourself on the wrong side of a bullet from LEO. I do think body language may give you a reprieve though but if a police tells u to get down you better get down and make your intentions known..
 
Simons the owners of most ofg the malls in New Mexico have huge signs saying NO WEAPONS ALLOWED. Now after this incident in Utah and one lone officer makes want to rethink, 1 Why do I even have business in a mall 2 Having my G21 with me is more important than a tresspass charge. Untill that day I never carried a spare mag. Hell if 14 rounds of 230 grain Federal Hydroshocks is not enough then nothing is. Seems like in this case this applies: The evil of better is not having a reload.

Chuck
 
I figure my safest bet would be to lay on my belly and make mall carpet Snow Angels.

Given the way some malls are maintained, that wouldn't be snow you'd be making angels in. :uhoh:

Regarding Jeff's comments, bingo. FonF training is a must, and only the individual can decide if he or she is up to the demands of a firefight. Unless you're well trained the default response should be take care of yourself and your loved ones and no one will think worse of you for it. LEO's don't have an option, they have to respond, even if they're off duty. If not, they need to find another career.
 
JEFF WHITE - "... Officer Hammond had his wife call 9111 for him."

True... and it did not hurt at all that his wife was an off-duty police dispatcher, who knew what to say and describe her husband.

As for carrying extra ammo, in my opinion, any person, off-duty cop, retired cop, or civilian CCWer, who carries his firearm and does NOT carry extra ammo... is very foolish.

A Bianchi Speed Strip or HKS Speedloader, or an extra magazine, are NOT that heavy, and just might save your bacon one of these days.

My opinion.

L.W.
 
From what I read the off duty cop had to over and over again ID himself to the first cops on scene.
No matter how this gets downplayed, this is an act of terrorism. This is the very reason I got my CCW.
Honestly, I think if you had a shot then take it but you would be better off hunkering down somewhere protecting those around you. I'd be to concerned that a LEO would come up on me thinking I was the shooter.
 
It's one thing to respond if you see the bad guy in the act. It's a totally different situation if you run to the sound of gunfire.
I think thats a good way of putting what I've wanted to describe in so many of these threads. I couldn't let someone be executed in front of me if I thought I had a reasonably good chance of stopping it, but it doesn't mean I'm going to run and find the guy either.

I'd be to concerned that a LEO would come up on me thinking I was the shooter.
I imagine you'd have some 'spaining to do and would eventually be assisted to the floor rather violently. However, and maybe I give LEO's under stress too much credit, I don't think I'd be all that worried about being shot by the police. Presumably if you were stuck hiding somewhere in the mall when something like this was happening your weapon would be holstered or at low ready. I don't think you'd get shot provided you didn't raise your weapon. The only time I could imagine it as being a concern is if the attacker was upon you or someone else and caught you with your weapon raised in defense. I don't know, leo's tell me how far off I am. Is the concealed carry person more likely to have their weapon in a threatening position in a situation like this or are the police going to be that jumpy?
 
Is the concealed carry person more likely to have their weapon in a threatening position in a situation like this or are the police going to be that jumpy?

I have no idea how the CCW holder would be carrying his weapon. Look at the dynamics, you have been dispatched to an active shooter situation where you already have victims down. How long are you going to wait for the person you confront with a raised weapon in hand to put it down? I rather doubt the discussion about putting the weapon down is going to last very long. The officer is dealing with someone he believes has already shot people. How long would you wait if you didn't get immediate compliance? How many other potential victims do you think he could shoot before before you shot him?

It's all going to be situationally dependent, but an active shooter is somewhat different then the drunk who's waving his shotgun around on his front porch and scaring the neighbors.

Jeff
 
I guess it just depends on how it plays out. I was picturing someone hunkered down inside a store or behind stairs or a support column with a firearm by their side or in low ready in case the attacker came by. I wasn't picturing someone with their pistol raised for that all that long that it would seem likely the police would happen in during those few seconds. Of course that person is already having a bad day...

Shop online...you won't get shot by lunatics or the police and there won't be kids holding up their huge baggy pants slowing you down by walking in front of you. :D
 
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