V Max for SD?

[KansasSasquatch]

Originally posted by 788Ham


THE FOLLOWING IS NOT, AND SHOULD IN NO WAY BE CONSTRUED AS LEGAL ADVICE, I AM NOT A LAWYER! Hopefully someone competent will be along soon to correct any of my errors or omissions.

I'm not familiar with Colorado law, but in Texas if you are in fear for your life or serious bodily injury, or for the lives of others (including serious bodily injury) and the actor presents an immediate AND credible threat, then the use of deadly force for self defense is justifiable.

What this means is that if a guy yells at you "You ran over my dog, I'm gonna kill your sorry a$$", while waving a knife, you wouldn't be justified in shooting him from 150 yards away, since the threat, while credible, is not immediate. He would have to get very close before he became a real threat with a knife.

If however, he drops the knife, reaches behind the seat of his pickup, grabs a bolt action rifle and starts to assume a firing position using his vehicle as cover, the threat has now become both credible and immediate. In Texas you would now be justified in using deadly force if you truly believed that you were in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury.

There is no requirement that a person under attack be in a building under their ownership in order to keep themselves from being murdered, nor is there a specified maximum distance for the use of deadly force to be justified.
It depends on the totality of the circumstances.

THE PRECEDING IS NOT, AND SHOULD IN NO WAY BE CONSTRUED AS LEGAL ADVICE, I AM NOT A LAWYER!

I will say that if there's any way to NOT kill someone while keeping yourself and loved ones safe and preserving your own personal moral code, then don't kill anyone.

Even putting moral and ethical questions aside, a homicide is likely to cost you a lot in lawyers fees.

I'm not giving legal advice either, but if I'm not mistaken Texas allows for use of deadly force to protect personal property. http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm So whether or not you think it's right to shoot someone for something like stealing your truck, it appears that under Texas law you might be justified in shooting 100+ yards away.

I'm not a lawyer either.

 

[mdm]

I don't hunt. My rifles and pistols are for SD. I consider my range time to be training for SD. I look at 100 yards as being the limit of my need for SD. I don't think I'd be able to make a good argument for SD at 100+ yards. Because of this I limit my training to 50 yards or less with a heavy concentration at 5-25 yards.

My rifles are my primary SD weapons. My pistols are for times a when carrying a rifle can't happen for whatever reason. For some reason people seem to frown on carrying a rifle into Wal-Mart.

I'm a firm believer in "train the way you will fight because you will fight the way you trained".

Because of all the above, I only load for SD purposes. I don't have training rounds and SD rounds. Any box of rounds I pull off the shelf is full of SD rounds.

When I was considering what .223 bullets to use for our ARs, I decided on two bullets, MidwayUSA's Dogtown and Nosler's Varmageddon 55 gr HP. They are basically the same bullet (may in fact be the same bullet) at about the same price. They have proven to be completely interchangeable. They both shoot the same with the same powder load, primer, and OAL. I doubt you would be able to tell the difference between the two. I've shot both of them into gell at 15, 25, and 50 yards. They are explosive at those ranges. Maximum damage is at 4-6 inches in depending on the range. I've got no doubt that your attack will be stopped once one finds its way into your chest.

 

[oldpapps]

From Mr. Spy:
"Quote:
Double tap, if the threat continues being a threat, double tap again, if the threat continues being a threat, make a slow shot to the nose, if the threat continues to be a threat, turn and run.
While double-tapping multiple times isn't a bad strategy, it isn't one you can rely on being able to accomplish. Far too many people in self defense shootings don't get a chance to make a second shot for a variety of reasons, gun malfunction, gun damage, and/or gun loss being at the top of the list.
This scares me. I carried for one agency or another from the late 60s to the early 00s. I have difficulty not double taping and the thought of one of my toys malfunctioning is the least of my worries.

Quote:
Call me old fashioned but personally I wouldn't use anything but a ball round or slug for SD. If it's good enough for the cops, it's good enough for me. Might even be more defensible in court.
Okay, you are old fashioned. I don't know of any police agencies that are using simple ball ammo in their guns. They are all using either frangible, ballistic tip ammo, or expanding ammo of one type or another in their rifles depending on their perceived needs. I would not be surprised if some are using ball, but by and large, ball is NOT the typical choice for LEOs.
Most COPs are issued what some City/County administrator is willing to spend money on. Not what will save the COP's bacon. I dealt with a city council that was afraid of the word 'Magnum'. And the mention of an AUTO LOADER was as if a machine-gun nest was being purposed. At my last employment, we were issued glocks. Why? Because they were cheap!

Quote:
If someone comes in your home after you wearing body armor, you have really big problems.
LOL, it isn't because of the body armor that you have really big problems."
Guess you would need to be prepared for all the extremes.


I'm glad this is all only a mind game. Otherwise I would feel a little nervous.
I'm still happy with VMax type bullets.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

This scares me. I carried for one agency or another from the late 60s to the early 00s. I have difficulty not double taping and the thought of one of my toys malfunctioning is the least of my worries.

You can't double tap if your gun does get damaged, does malfunction, or if you lose it. That is a reality.

Most COPs are issued what some City/County administrator is willing to spend money on. Not what will save the COP's bacon. I dealt with a city council that was afraid of the word 'Magnum'.

Interesting, the departments around here are given budgets and determine what ammo suits them within their budget and needs, not the city council. No doubt some have been given limits on weaponry, but none around here carry ball ammo of any sort and ball ammo usually is the ammo least likely to save your proverbial bacon.

The local PD goes further and gives officers a choice of carrying what the department provides or any of several 'approved' calibers and models of ammo if the officers wish to pay for their own ammo.

 

[oldpapps]

Mr. Spy,

I don't want to get too far from the original question of this post.

For 36 years and 4 Departments/Agencies, I have had 2 glocks 'give it up' in one week (that doesn't do much for anyone's confidence in a weapon) but that was during training. No other weapon/s ever had a problem of any type. I have never 'lost' a weapon, ever! (FYI, I didn't have a soft desk job, I worked a warehouse area at night with that department, 13 years.)

I was FBI Firearms Instructor trained, yet the City Administrator and City Council, flat refused the weapons and ammunition purposed by the Chief of Police, I helped in that selection. We were issued what they weren't apposed to. I complied fully but also carried my .45 ACP.
My last employer was a big surprise to me. The uses of deadly force for a property crime. My first issue weapon there was a heavy barreled model 10. Just before I retired we moved to 40 cal glocks. No comment.

I still feel that most if not all aggressors would be deterred if hit with a light varmint bullet. A VMax should get the point across. The desired effect is not to kill but to stop the aggressive felonious threat.

End of story.

 

[spitballer]

Guess you're right, swampman, and since leaving the military I don't have to use a firearm professionally so my perspective is probably different, but personally I wouldn't inflict grotesque or disfiguring injuries requiring lifelong treatment with dum-dum type bullets when normal ammo would be more than adequate for any most situations.

 

[Potatohead]

Attila the Hun on crack?

Now that's one Ive never heard before.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I still feel that most if not all aggressors would be deterred if hit with a light varmint bullet. A VMax should get the point across. The desired effect is not to kill but to stop the aggressive felonious threat.

Sure they would, but then again, 'most' aggressors are deterred by the victim pointing a gun at them. Only a small percentage of the time do the intended victims actually have to shoot at their aggressors and when they do, most of that small percentage of the time, the aggressors do stop, even if not struck. Most of these stops are psychological stops and not physiological stops. While psychological stops do work 'most' of the time, even without a firearm being discharged or without the aggressive suspect being hit, psychological stops cannot be counted on to work. Only physiological stops can be counted on and you may be less apt to attain such stops certain types of ammo. Shallow penetrating ammo is less apt to produce physiological stops unless some very specific key points are hit.

Going back to what the cops use, our local SWAT team uses 35 gr. Hornady TAP .223. They are operating under specific circumstances, in full body armor, using team tactics, etc. Their light loads are certainly hoped to stop threats, but also to readily fragment and to help eliminate possible bystander injuries. The use of the very light loads work well for their situation. Most of us non-cops are not in that sort of situation.

The issue, in reality isn't what will happen with your typical aggressor if you use the wrong ammo, but what will be the consequence if you end up with an atypical aggressor. If you have the choice, as does the OP, to have proper ammo that will penetrate and perform more optimally for self defense and be more apt to produce a physiological stop, then why not have and use it?

 

[JamieC]

Well I'm loading up the 55gr VMax, I'll see how accurate they are, I've decided that for SD they would be more than adequate, 10" of penetration, maybe not up to the FBI standard, that might be a big difference with a pistol, but the devastation up to that point with a 223, I think the threat would consider doing something else. If I need more, there's always the 12ga!

 

[fireflyfather]

I know the TAP is designed for defense. Don't know if it's the same v max bullet but those seem to fragment and not over penetrate. I have like two boxes lying around which I'll never use...

Depending on when it was manufactured, there may be two different types of 55gr 5.56mm TAP (See my test linked earlier in the thread).

TAP FPD, V-Max, and Z-Max ammo are all essentially the same bullet. TAP Urban is a big ???.

Well I'm loading up the 55gr VMax, I'll see how accurate they are, I've decided that for SD they would be more than adequate, 10" of penetration, maybe not up to the FBI standard, that might be a big difference with a pistol, but the devastation up to that point with a 223, I think the threat would consider doing something else. If I need more, there's always the 12ga!

Remember, the FBI standard is taking into account lots of non-standard variables (drugged up, arms in bullet path before torso, massive pectoral muscles, massive body fat, very thick clothing, intervening barriers, windshields, etc...) that stemmed out of a gunfight where crooks with rifles shot up FBI agents with handguns...

If you are already shooting a rifle, you're more than halfway there. I am primarily concerned about neighbors and blow-through, since my situation involves the next-door condo directly in my most likely line of defense. That's why I use V-max. If I didn't have to worry about neighbors (very rural property), I would be using M193 or Mk 262.

 

[KansasSasquatch]

Guess you're right, swampman, and since leaving the military I don't have to use a firearm professionally so my perspective is probably different, but personally I wouldn't inflict grotesque or disfiguring injuries requiring lifelong treatment with dum-dum type bullets when normal ammo would be more than adequate for any most situations.

Oh so if someone is attacking you, trying to kill you, you actually care if and/or how they go through the rest of their life? If someone were to attack me or my wife or daughter, the ABSOLUTE LAST thing on my mind is if that attacker lives or dies. The ONLY thing I care about is making sure myself and my family (and any potential innocent bystanders) walk away with little or no injury. I want whatever bullet is going to give the best chance of that outcome. A FMJ from a rifle has a good chance to overpenetrate if fired in close quarters while a varmint type projectiles are more than likely going to come apart in the attacker and stay in the attacker----where I want the bullet to be.

 

[Swampman]

Originally Posted by spitballer

Guess you're right, swampman, and since leaving the military I don't have to use a firearm professionally so my perspective is probably different, but personally I wouldn't inflict grotesque or disfiguring injuries requiring lifelong treatment with dum-dum type bullets when normal ammo would be more than adequate for any most situations

You wouldn't use "dum-dum" bullets because they might inflict " grotesque or disfiguring injuries"!?
Are you serious?
Maybe Mike Wallace didn't tell you this, but the wounds inflicted by fmj bullets aren't wholesome, beautifying and Disney friendly!
My suggestion to anyone that wishes to avoid inflicting grotesque or disfiguring injuries on the people that feloniously assault them, is to simply follow their commands and hope that they're as altruistic as you seem to be.

I say "seem to be", because while you seem to have plenty of empathy for your potential assailants, your choice of less effective, higher penetration ammunition shows that your concern doesn't seem to extend to your neighbors and their kids.

Yes while you're liberally peppering 9mm 125 grain FMJ's into and around the anatomy of some poor misunderstood fellow who'd made a few poor life choices in a desperate bid to keep him from filleting your spleen, ALL the bullets that you fire, hits as well as misses, keep traveling until they hit a wall, a car or a toddler.

The worst thing is (not really the worst, but the dumbest), is that in your misguided attempts to limit harm and suffering to the person that's trying to kill you, you've quite likely signed their death warrant. Instead of shooting your assailant once or twice with a more effective round, you've shot him so full of holes that the ER Docs aren't even sure how many there are, let alone how to plug 'em all up!

Also, could you please explain to me what "normal" ammunition is.
The vast majority of ammunition available at my local Wall Mart (when they have any ammo at all), is of hollow or soft point configuration, it mostly seems to be made in Russia, the United States or Serbia. I couldn't find any made in India, let alone the old arsenal at Dum- Dum.

 

[Walkalong]

Let's call this one asked and answered.