bannockburn
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I would look for an older Vaquero with the larger frame. The handling and balance of the older Vaquero just feel better in my hand than the current smaller framed models.
Vaquero or Blackhawk?
- Thread starter berettaprofessor
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berettaprofessor
Member
!
Very helpful, everyone. About 3:2 for the Blackhawk....but most of the comments say BH IF you want the adjustable sights or to fire hot loads. I'm definitely a light load guy and although I like adjustable sights, as someone pointed out, I rarely take advantage of them....so the feel/balance issue may swing me to the Vaquero.
Plus, I handled a used Vaquero with a 4.5 barrel yesterday...what a sweet trigger! The grips, though, were synthetic and rough...that bird head grip is a tempting idea.
Very helpful, everyone. About 3:2 for the Blackhawk....but most of the comments say BH IF you want the adjustable sights or to fire hot loads. I'm definitely a light load guy and although I like adjustable sights, as someone pointed out, I rarely take advantage of them....so the feel/balance issue may swing me to the Vaquero.
Plus, I handled a used Vaquero with a 4.5 barrel yesterday...what a sweet trigger! The grips, though, were synthetic and rough...that bird head grip is a tempting idea.
Cump
Member
Are you committed to Ruger? If you like the SAA, why not consider a clone? My family has had good luck with Ubertis of one stripe or another.
35 Whelen
Member
Excellent question.
Honestly I bought my Vaquero before I realized the levels to which the Colt repros could safely be loaded. If I had it to do again I'd just get a Uberti since they don't typically have the issues the Ruger's have.
35W
J-Bar
Member
I have a pair of Old Model Vaqueros in .357 Mag and another pair in .45 Colt that I use in cowboy action shooting. None of these four revolvers shot close enough to point of aim when new to be reliable in competition. It took some filing on the front and rear sights.
If you want to hit what you are aiming at, get the adjustable sighted Blackhawk.
I have no opinion on the New Vaquero, other than the hammer looks goofy.
If you want to hit what you are aiming at, get the adjustable sighted Blackhawk.
I have no opinion on the New Vaquero, other than the hammer looks goofy.
Short of the (weak) Colt Single Actions, the New Vaquero will be the most natural feeling/pointing weapon you own.
New Vaquero PROs:
- Lighter
- Exceptionally Natural Handling
- 150% stronger (22,000psi) than the SAA Colts (14,000)
- Accurate (RCBS 45-270SAA all well within std pistol bullseye 10-ring at 25 yds even with fixed sites)
CONs
- Not as strong as the Blackhawk (28,000psi), so will not be a 44Mag rival
- Fixed sights
.
New Vaquero PROs:
- Lighter
- Exceptionally Natural Handling
- 150% stronger (22,000psi) than the SAA Colts (14,000)
- Accurate (RCBS 45-270SAA all well within std pistol bullseye 10-ring at 25 yds even with fixed sites)
CONs
- Not as strong as the Blackhawk (28,000psi), so will not be a 44Mag rival
- Fixed sights
.
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I have my share of fixed sight guns but the superior sight picture of the adjustable sight guns is the natural choice if you want to run heavy loads. If you're not, plan on using one load and zeroing for it and can get along with the sight picture afforded by the fixed sights, then the Vaquero or New Vaquero will do fine. If you're going to run standard loads (or handloads up to 21-22,000psi), then there's no reason for the beefier large frame Vaquero (1993-2004). The New Vaquero (2005-present) is not only smaller, like the Colt SAA but also has the steel XR3 grip frame which is a dead ringer for the Colt SAA/Navy grip. It also has the reverse indexing pawl which makes loading/unloading easier, lighter springs and a smoother action.
Then, as 35Whelen pointed out, there is also the mid-frame Blackhawk "flat-top" convertible available from Lipsey's.
IMHO, the sight picture of adjustable sights is the most important aspect, adjustability is secondary.
Then, as 35Whelen pointed out, there is also the mid-frame Blackhawk "flat-top" convertible available from Lipsey's.
IMHO, the sight picture of adjustable sights is the most important aspect, adjustability is secondary.
That's not true at all. Any post-war Colt SAA .45 is on par with the New Vaquero for strength. Standard weight cast bullets 260-270gr at 1100fps is their limit.
BCRider
Member
Keep in mind that there really is no such thing as a truly fixed sight gun. The NM Vaquero might require a set of files to adjust the sights but they CAN be adjusted. Or even replaced and adjusted. The front blade can be replaced or even built up a little with some welding and then trimmed back again.
The real issue is if you want to be able to shoot a wide variety of ammo on the fly. If so then the Blackhawk is the way to go. But if you will be reloading your own ammo then you will have control over the bullets and powder loads so you can work towards a load that will suit your desires. Once you finalize that then trim or build up and trim the front blade to suit. While you're at it you can also widen the rear notch to your preference and/or to adjust windage slightly.
Needless to say one wants to do this slowly and over time to sneak up on the final trimming. The final front blade height is also dependent on if you shoot primarily one handed or two handed and how much support you get from that second hand. So settle on your preferred shooting style as well before that final session with the file.
And by the way, I fully agree with the feeling that the adjustable sights on the Blackhawk turn it into a whole other gun. It may still be a single action but the look given by the sights makes it a whole other style of gun. And yes, I too greatly prefer the smoother look of the fixed sight SAA style.
On the other hand the Super Blackhawk Hunter model with the top ribbed barrel that extends the line of the frame's top strap looks totally right but in a whole other way.
The real issue is if you want to be able to shoot a wide variety of ammo on the fly. If so then the Blackhawk is the way to go. But if you will be reloading your own ammo then you will have control over the bullets and powder loads so you can work towards a load that will suit your desires. Once you finalize that then trim or build up and trim the front blade to suit. While you're at it you can also widen the rear notch to your preference and/or to adjust windage slightly.
Needless to say one wants to do this slowly and over time to sneak up on the final trimming. The final front blade height is also dependent on if you shoot primarily one handed or two handed and how much support you get from that second hand. So settle on your preferred shooting style as well before that final session with the file.
And by the way, I fully agree with the feeling that the adjustable sights on the Blackhawk turn it into a whole other gun. It may still be a single action but the look given by the sights makes it a whole other style of gun. And yes, I too greatly prefer the smoother look of the fixed sight SAA style.
On the other hand the Super Blackhawk Hunter model with the top ribbed barrel that extends the line of the frame's top strap looks totally right but in a whole other way.
Vern Humphrey
Member
If I wanted an SAA with fixed sights, I'd go with a Colt.
If I want a good horse and woods gun, I'd go with the Blackhawk.
If I want a good horse and woods gun, I'd go with the Blackhawk.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Dave Scovill has been writing about this for years, as has Brian Pearce.
Keep in mind that these guns have been available in .45ACP.
In reality, the only Colt SAA's that need to be kept to 14,000psi are the old blackpowder guns.
Pierce is one of my sources in noting that:
"Loads in the 20ksi range are will prove useful in US firearms revolvers
that are 100% American Made (after the year 2000), Colt's New
Service, ... and S&W post World-II N-Frames including Models 25
and 625 Mountain Guns"
www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL 246partial.pdf
I didn't see any Colt Single Actions/nor particularly their clones of any year in that caveat.
Does Scovill have other cites?
.
"Loads in the 20ksi range are will prove useful in US firearms revolvers
that are 100% American Made (after the year 2000), Colt's New
Service, ... and S&W post World-II N-Frames including Models 25
and 625 Mountain Guns"
www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL 246partial.pdf
I didn't see any Colt Single Actions/nor particularly their clones of any year in that caveat.
Does Scovill have other cites?
.
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OK... I just Amazon-ordered Scoville's
"Colt's Single Action Army: Loading and Shooting the Peacemaker"
Hardcover– November 27, 2013
I'm always open to being re-edicated....
"Colt's Single Action Army: Loading and Shooting the Peacemaker"
Hardcover– November 27, 2013
I'm always open to being re-edicated....
Vern Humphrey
Member
Personally, if I want to drive a .45 bullet with more than 14K PSI, I get a gun designed for that pressure -- original Colts are too expensive to risk.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Scovill's updated book is a good one!
So you don't think people should shoot their .45ACP or .45 convertible Colt SAA's? Even Uberti offers them as convertibles.
Vern Humphrey
Member
I would not shoot an original Colt at more that 14K PSI in .45 Colt.
Cump
Member
aren't the us firearms revolvers referred to by pierce saa clones?
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
That is your choice and you are entitled to it but that doesn't make it unsafe. What's the difference between shooting factory .45ACP at 21,000psi and .45Colt handloads at 21,000psi?
If it's not a Colt, it is a replica. However, the later domestic USFA's are the strongest of the bunch, including Ruger. Having been successfully chambered (or rechambered) to .44Mag.....by USFA and tested by Pearce.
Cump
Member
okay, confused on how the reference wasn't evidence that clones were good to 20k psi.
but the USFA are stronger than other clones, like Uberti?
but the USFA are stronger than other clones, like Uberti?
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Nobody really wants to make a clear statement about the replicas, except for the USFA's. They've been in production for several decades with quality all over the board. Some have cast frames, some have forged frames. Some have soft innards. Uberti's have also been available in .45ACP but no one will go out on a limb and recommend equivalent .45Colt loads in them. The cylinder contains the pressure but the lockwork, bolt notches and the bolt window in the frame must withstand the battering.
35 Whelen
Member
I ran across Pearce's article on the USFA the other day and he stated they were significantly stronger than Colts and the like because their cylinders were larger in diameter tban Colts and replicas.
Regarding the Italian imports, they're proofed at 3x standard pressure according to Uberti's video, for what that's worth. Too one must remember they're chambered for then.357 which is a cartridge generating fairly high pressures.
All that said, Craig is spot on when he states there's no difference in the 45 ACP+P at 21,000 psi and the 45 Colt at the same pressure.
35W
Regarding the Italian imports, they're proofed at 3x standard pressure according to Uberti's video, for what that's worth. Too one must remember they're chambered for then.357 which is a cartridge generating fairly high pressures.
All that said, Craig is spot on when he states there's no difference in the 45 ACP+P at 21,000 psi and the 45 Colt at the same pressure.
35W
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Peak pressure" contained by the cylinder is merely one factor in strength req'd/
The difference in system stress for a 22,000psi 230gr/45 ACP vs a similar 22,000psi 270gr/45 Colt is significant.
One need only compare 25% higher recoil speeds (12 vs 15 fps) for the same weight weapon to appreciate the design implications throughout the gun (as Craig C points out)
The difference in system stress for a 22,000psi 230gr/45 ACP vs a similar 22,000psi 270gr/45 Colt is significant.
One need only compare 25% higher recoil speeds (12 vs 15 fps) for the same weight weapon to appreciate the design implications throughout the gun (as Craig C points out)
Lucky Derby
Member
Did I miss something? What issues do the Rugers have?
Uberti was NOT on Pierce's list. Only US-made USFA single actions (which BTW haven't been made since 2011)
Again, a single pressure proof test does NOT indicate the actual stress that 45 Colts (vice 45 ACP) can be
subjected to with a diet of heavy bullets.
On that note, if one plans on using ordinary 14ksi loads, anything will do. But if someone
wants full potential beyond that for any extended period, stick with Pierce's list.
.
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Cump
Member
35 Whelen: "Regarding the Italian imports, they're proofed at 3x standard pressure according to Uberti's video, for what that's worth."
That's good to know. Is the 3x figure for all cartridges or just .45? It far exceeds CIP requirements -- 30 percent over the standard. Standard CIP pressure for 45 colt is 16000 psi.
That would mean they are testing at 48k, which is about 30 percent over 44 mag pressures. 42k if the video is referring to 3x over SAAMI.
That's good to know. Is the 3x figure for all cartridges or just .45? It far exceeds CIP requirements -- 30 percent over the standard. Standard CIP pressure for 45 colt is 16000 psi.
That would mean they are testing at 48k, which is about 30 percent over 44 mag pressures. 42k if the video is referring to 3x over SAAMI.
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