Vaquero or Blackhawk?

[35 Whelen]

Uberti was NOT on Pierce's list. Only US-made USFA single actions (which BTW haven't been made since 2011)
Again, a single pressure proof test does NOT indicate the actual stress that 45 Colts (vice 45 ACP) can be
subjected to with a diet of heavy bullets.

On that note, if one plans on using ordinary 14ksi loads, anything will do. But if someone
wants full potential beyond that for any extended period, stick with Pierce's list.



.

What list??

If you're assuming I want to load a Uberti to Vaquero level pressures, you're incorrect. What I learned after toiling over my Vaquero to make it shoot is a good 285 gr. cast SWC can be loaded right up to 1000 fps without exceeding 14,000 psi. A load such as this would more than serve my needs.

Did I miss something? What issues do the Rugers have?

Inconsistent cylinder throat diameters and tight spot in the barrel where they screw into the frame

35W

 

[MEHavey]

285 gr. cast SWC can be loaded right up to 1000 fps without exceeding 14,000

Can you tell us what makes up that load?
(With the proper caveats & warning bells)

 

[MEHavey]

What list??

See Post 37 above.

 

[CraigC]

(which BTW haven't been made since 2011)

USFA shipped revolvers through 2012.

 

[35 Whelen]

Can you tell us what makes up that load?
(With the proper caveats & warning bells)

VV-3N37 is the powder. Handloader #246 is the source (the link to which you provided in Post #37) or you can subscribe to loaddata.com and find a litany of 45 Colt loads. In this particular reference there are actually two loads for the aforementioned bullet that are right at 1000 fps; one a hair over, the other a hair under.

35W

 

[MEHavey]

You are correct. That is quite a load. Although a VV fan (big time), I've never run across that powder.

I'll have to go see if I can find.
(But remember, pressure is only one factor in beating a revolver into looseness)

 

[35 Whelen]

Thanks. I acquire revolvers to use them. If I beat them to looseness, so be it. But one of my Uberti .44 Specials has somewhere between 2500 and 3000 rounds through it, 99% of which have been 250-260 gr. cast SWC's running 850-1000 fps, and it is as tight as my newer ones.

35W

 

[MEHavey]

250-260 gr. cast SWC's running 850-1000 fps

Quite likely no problem. But that 285 at 1,024 does give me pause.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Peak pressure" contained by the cylinder is merely one factor in strength req'd/

The difference in system stress for a 22,000psi 230gr/45 ACP vs a similar 22,000psi 270gr/45 Colt is significant.

One need only compare 25% higher recoil speeds (12 vs 15 fps) for the same weight weapon to appreciate the design implications throughout the gun (as Craig C points out)

You're correct. Shooting a .45 ACP +P round in a SAA is NOT the same as shooting a .45 Colt round at the same pressure.

Let me point out that there are many bad things that can happen to a gun that is given a steady diet of high pressure rounds -- the damage isn't limited to blowing up the gun. I don't want to subject an original Colt to such punishment -- not when there are plenty of other, less costly, guns on the market that are better able to handle it.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

35 Whelen: "Regarding the Italian imports, they're proofed at 3x standard pressure according to Uberti's video, for what that's worth."

That information is completely incorrect. That video is full of misinformation and incorrect descriptions. That video was not put together by Uberti, it was done by a third party, and whether they didn't know any better, or whether the narrator simply got it wrong, it is still wrong.

Unlike here in the US, ALL Italian firearms are proofed in government proof houses. The proof loads for 45 Colt are between 1 1/3 and 1 1/2 times more powerful than standard SAAMI spec MAX loads. Not 3 times. So the proof loads are going to be between 18,662 psi and 21,000 psi.

Like all proof testing, that means the firearm survived a few proof rounds at that level. Whether or not the gun can take a steady diet of the same loads is another matter.

357 Magnum is a completely different kettle of fish, there is much more metal surrounding the chambers in a 357 Mag than any 45 Colt. Do not equate the proof loads of 45 colt with 357 Mag proof loads. 3X 14000 is 42,000 psi. Try that in any 45 Colt revolver with the basic dimensions of the original Colt and I guarantee you will wind up with something like this:





Here is a photo I have posted many times on many forums. It graphically indicates the strength of an 'original model' (the old large frame ones) Vaquero, vs a Colt or clone. The cylinder in the center is from one of the large frame older Vaqueros. Notice how much steel surrounds each chamber. The dimensions of this cylinder are the same as a regular Blackhawk and it has the same strength as the Blackhawk. The cylinder on the left is from an Uberti Cattleman, the cylinder on the right is from a 2nd Gen Colt. All three cylinders are chambered for 45 Colt. Do not think you can fire cartridges up to the same pressures in the Colt or clone as you can in the beefier Vaquero cylinder.

 

[MEHavey]

Thanks... a picture (especially the last one w/ the 3 cylinders) is worth a 1,000 words.

 

[Cump]

Driftwood: "That information is completely incorrect. That video is full of misinformation and incorrect descriptions. That video was not put together by Uberti, it was done by a third party, and whether they didn't know any better, or whether the narrator simply got it wrong, it is still wrong."

That's what I suspected (somehow +30 percent got turned into 3x), though I was liking the idea of Uberti super clones.

 

[35 Whelen]

That information is completely incorrect. That video is full of misinformation and incorrect descriptions. That video was not put together by Uberti, it was done by a third party, and whether they didn't know any better, or whether the narrator simply got it wrong, it is still wrong.

Unlike here in the US, ALL Italian firearms are proofed in government proof houses. The proof loads for 45 Colt are between 1 1/3 and 1 1/2 times more powerful than standard SAAMI spec MAX loads. Not 3 times. So the proof loads are going to be between 18,662 psi and 21,000 psi.

Like all proof testing, that means the firearm survived a few proof rounds at that level. Whether or not the gun can take a steady diet of the same loads is another matter.

357 Magnum is a completely different kettle of fish, there is much more metal surrounding the chambers in a 357 Mag than any 45 Colt. Do not equate the proof loads of 45 colt with 357 Mag proof loads. 3X 14000 is 42,000 psi. Try that in any 45 Colt revolver with the basic dimensions of the original Colt and I guarantee you will wind up with something like this:


Here is a photo I have posted many times on many forums. It graphically indicates the strength of an 'original model' (the old large frame ones) Vaquero, vs a Colt or clone. The cylinder in the center is from one of the large frame older Vaqueros. Notice how much steel surrounds each chamber. The dimensions of this cylinder are the same as a regular Blackhawk and it has the same strength as the Blackhawk. The cylinder on the left is from an Uberti Cattleman, the cylinder on the right is from a 2nd Gen Colt. All three cylinders are chambered for 45 Colt. Do not think you can fire cartridges up to the same pressures in the Colt or clone as you can in the beefier Vaquero cylinder.

Thanks for your information. I read the info on the Wiki site too and it appears the video was incorrect in stating the firearms are proofed at 3x normal pressure. In fact, the 45 Colt is proofed at a mean pressure of 1430 bars or about 20,700 psi. They do NOT however proof based on SAAMI specifications for cartridges, rather based on their own which for the 45 Colt is 16,000 psi. FWIW, the 45 ACP is proofed at about 24,500 psi. This information is directly from the CIP's website.

Much of what I posted was taken totally out of context.

First, I'm not arguing that a 45 Colt chambered reproduction is as stout as a Vaquero, new or old model. I own both, shoot them extensively (I have a range at my house allowing me to shoot daily) and am intimately familiar with the revolvers both inside and out.

Second my mention of the 357 Magnum was in no way meant to compare its chamber pressures to those of the 45 Colt. Rather, it was merely to point out that the frames of the revolvers are obviously designed to handle the banging and torqueing of high pressure cartridges. If you don't believe a 357 is such a cartridge, fire a few cylinders full of heavy hunting loads and hot 125 gr. self defense loads, taking note of the severe twisting motion of the revolver in your hand when it is fired.

These threads invariably turn to meaningless hair-splitting so each can "prove" their respective points.

Thanks for the picture of the ruptured cylinder, but we all get it; revolvers can be destroyed by carelessness. Some have thicker cylinders than others, etc.

As I've stated many times, if you're more comfortable with mouse fart loads, by all means, travel that road....and I'll travel mine.

35W

 

[colima]

I've got both an old Vaquero and a Bisley Blackhawk in 45 Colt, both with the 7.5" barrels. Love those guns. The Vaquero goes to CASS meets along with my USFA Rodeo II. I'm in the market for another USFA or a Uberti. I've got no experience with the new Vaquero, but they are VERY popular at the CASS events. The competitive shooters shoot lightly loaded 38s in guns chambered for .357. I don't think thats very authentic so I stick with the 45 colts with ~900 fps loads. I'm not the fastest guy at the line, but I have fun and feel more connected with the original cowboys. Of course, if you match your rifle and pistol rounds (most do), the use of 45 colt in a Winchester 92 clone is not authentic either - they never made a 45 colt rifle back in the day. The best truly authentic choice would be a .44-40. I don't think you can get a Vaquero in .44-40 though.

I reload and I have to be very careful not to mix Ruger only loads with USFA loads. If you play around much with different weight bullets and loads, the Adjustable sights on the Blackhawk are a big plus. As someone else noted, the adjustable sights also have a better sight picture.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

35 Whelen:

I don't know why you have to get personal, I certainly did not mean to say anything personally insulting to you.

Even though most of my 45 shooting these days is at CAS meets, my 45 Colt loads are not the typical CAS mouse farts. My standard 45 Colt load is 35 or so grains of FFg Black Powder under a 250 grain bullet. Maybe not as hot as your loads, but certainly no mouse fart.

Regarding the misleading information in the video in question, whether it is SAAMI standard or a European standard, my intent was to say that the narration of the video was way off base in stating that Uberti clones were proofed to 3X the standard loads. And from the responses on this thread, some of the posters here were unaware that the 3X statement was incorrect.

Thanks very much, I have two New Vaqueros, a couple of three screw Blackhawks, and I have lost track of how many K frame and N frame Smiths that are chambered for 357 Mag. I am completely familiar with their recoil with full powered 357 Mag loads.

Sorry if you misinterpreted my comments about 45 Colt and 357 Mag having very different proof loads. I agree, the SAA has been chambered for 357 Mag since the 1930s and obviously the frame is up to the pounding of 357 Mag loads.

 

[CraigC]

You're correct. Shooting a .45 ACP +P round in a SAA is NOT the same as shooting a .45 Colt round at the same pressure.

How do you figure that?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

How do you figure that?

Because pressure is dynamic -- the impulse and duration are different when you compare a 230 grain bullet fired at 21K psi and a 250-270 bullet fired at the same pressure.

 

[CraigC]

The .45Colt exerts its pressure along a larger area with a longer curve when using the slower burning powders (like 2400) utilized in the 1100fps loads. In effect, the .45Colt at 21,000psi exerts less overall stress than the .45ACP at 21,000psi. Bullet weight is irrelevant.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

So we agree -- 21K PSI in a .45 Colt is different from the same pressure level in a .45 ACP.

 

[CraigC]

Different but inconsequential. Same for handloading for any cartridge, pressure curves are different depending on velocity and powder used.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

And our difference is, you say a 21K psi load is easier on a .45 Colt and I say it's harder.

 

[CraigC]

And our difference is, you say a 21K psi load is easier on a .45 Colt and I say it's harder.

Exactly how is a longer pressure curve over a broader area harder on the gun?

I say it makes no difference. SAAMI specs dictate peak pressure, not curves.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Exactly how is a longer pressure curve over a broader area harder on the gun?

I say it makes no difference. SAAMI specs dictate peak pressure, not curves.

First of all, when you say a longer pressure curve, you are making an assumption -- that the powder used will make such a difference.

Secondly, the issue in question is not SAMMI specs (which we are violating if we go to 21K psi in a .45 Colt) but the battering and abuse the revolver takes.

Since there are plenty of revolvers that will easily take 21K psi and even greater in .45 Colt, why subject a SAA to that pressure? If I want to go above 14K psi in .45 Colt, I simply shoot my Colt New Service or my Ruger Blackhawk.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I vote Vaquero.

I don't like shooting hot loads in much of anything north of a .357 magnum, so for me I personally wouldn't be shooting anything much hotter than standard fair .45 Colt loads. Also I like fixed sights for the most part. I also love the classic styling of the Vaq.

Still, a Blackhawk is an awesome gun and would be great for a handloader.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

It all boils down to go with the gun best suited for your purpose. If you want to hunt with the gun, use hot handloads and so on, the Blackhawk is better. If you simply want a more traditional appearance and feel and are content with factory loads or equivalent handloads, go with the Vaquero.