Vermont secession?

[AntiqueCollector]

Well, the VT guard would then be only under the control of the state, and relatively well armed...

And, Fletchette, check a map of U.S. territories, we have a lot of territory and people with no real representation. We have more land than just the fifty states...

And you collect gold/silver to protect your wealth if the FRN finally attains its true value of zero.

 

[Fletchette]

AntiqueCollector
Well, the VT guard would then be only under the control of the state, and relatively well armed...

And, Fletchette, check a map of U.S. territories, we have a lot of territory and people with no real representation. We have more land than just the fifty states...

And you collect gold/silver to protect your wealth if the FRN finally attains its true value of zero.

Thanks for answering my questions. However, I respectfully disagree.

With regards to the VT National Guard, they are legally extensions of the Federal military (much court history here to back this up). In any case, even if they did decide to be loyal to their state they would be no match in an actual armed confrontation with the Feds.

With regards to U.S. territories; yes, these areas are not represented in Congress but they are not taxed either. For example, Puerto Rico residents are not U.S. citizens, but they do not pay income tax. Therefore, Puerto Rico is not a protectorate. Even if it were, I do not think most people have a problem with smaller land masses and populations (like Guam) being a territory as they are so small they would not really qualify to be a state.

As for what to do *personally* when the dollar collapses, I question the idea of buying gold and silver now. When a real economic crisis hits, like the Great Depression, does gold and silver retain value? You can't eat it, heat your house with it, or shoot it at your assailants. Did gold and silver become currency in the Soviet Empire when it fell? I recall the former Soviet satellites falling back on the barter system when the currency crashed. Everything from ketchup to automobile tires was traded directly. What use is gold when people are starving? When people are starving they will trade a pound of gold for a cheeseburger...

 

[Gifted]

On the other hand, if there's something that enough people put value in, they'll use it. We'll barter for a while recovering, sure, but likely gold and silver will be trusted more than paper at first. For those that have enough of an economy to be trading with thier neighbors, they'll quickly start using placeholders(currency) for value. And the first placeholders will be gold and silver. I've heard the idea that when the dollar collapses, they'll put out the "amero" and use it to sell the NAU. Don't know how well that'll work.

 

[twoblink]

Now here is an idea. We vote DC out of the union. Now I know some of you are thinking that they are not really in the union right now but I say make it official. They take everyone in the fed with them.

Dude, DC is not a state and thus not part of the Union IMHO

My friend did a thesis paper on the most possible point of secession..

The answer is:

Catalina Island.

Get a bunch of gunnies to all move and retire on Catalina. Vote freedom lovers into the local government. Declare secession from California, and become an independent free trade state. Zero taxes, only tax commerce, and low tax at that. The island will prosper.

Mathematically, it is a highly defensible island. Short of them blowing the entire island up, (which I think Americans aren't willing to do to other Americans) it's really an easy island to defend. Unlike VT, which is a state with big borders.

Catalina is the optimum secession state..

My friend spent 3 and a half years doing research on it, that was his thesis..

 

[AntiqueCollector]

Thanks for answering my questions. However, I respectfully disagree.

With regards to the VT National Guard, they are legally extensions of the Federal military (much court history here to back this up). In any case, even if they did decide to be loyal to their state they would be no match in an actual armed confrontation with the Feds.

But if the state secedes, it's a moot point that they are currently under the ultimate control of the feds. And, even counting any who support the feds, I think there'd be enough to do the initial driving out of federal officers, like ATF agents, federal court officials, etc. After that, who knows, a small army could be raised, if the feds decide to start a war over it, but guerilla tactics would certainly be required to have any chances.

Of course, the big question, is what the rest of the US would want want to do, if they'd support a second civil war over such a tiny state or not. Given what I see in response to foreign wars, I don't think most Americans have it in them anymore to support such a war in their own backyards, unlike in the 1860's.

 

[atek3]

If VT seceeded, I would hope that Maine and New Hampshire joined. That way we'd have ocean access, a foreign border, and enough people to maintain the division of labor.

Of course, the big question, is what the rest of the US would want want to do, if they'd support a second civil war over such a tiny state or not. Given what I see in response to foreign wars, I don't think most Americans have it in them anymore to support such a war in their own backyards, unlike in the 1860's.

Nonsense... If VT tried to seceed, the man on the street in the majority of the US would go to war to 'save the union'... it would probably turn into another chechnya

atek3

 

[Thin Black Line]

Catalina is the optimum secession state..

My friend spent 3 and a half years doing research on it, that was his thesis..

How did your friend factor in things like basic self-sustainment during a simple
long-term naval blockade, or an all-out British style Falkland Island invasion?

I'd love to read that......

 

[Libertylover]

Thin Black Line, I'd guess appeals to the UN. However, the US has veto power in the Security Council, so nothing would get done. Ultimately, I think an appeal to the people of the US would have the most promise, but not enough to be successful in the instance of an island nation. As Atek said, the "man on the street" might be enraged at the mere thought of a tiny island seceding. It could really go either way, I think.

Vermont would be a whole different issue, though. If the feds decided to be dicks and tried to restrict trade with Vermont, it could backfire and get the secession discussion moving in NH. Vermont also has a border with Canada. What does Canada have to lose by conducting business and diplomacy with Vermont? Loss of NORAD protection??? Who cares, the Soviet Union is dead and gone.

Basically, the feds have a lot more to lose than to gain if they were to use force to deter Vermont secession.

 

[buzz_knox]

What does Canada have to lose by conducting business and diplomacy with Vermont? Loss of NORAD protection??? Who cares, the Soviet Union is dead and gone.

Agreed. What does Canada care about trade and peaceful relations with one of the top economies in the world and it's biggest (currently sole) contiguous neighbor, when it can have access to the bustling economy and marketplace of Vermont.

 

[AntiqueCollector]

Nonsense... If VT tried to seceed, the man on the street in the majority of the US would go to war to 'save the union'... it would probably turn into another chechnya

So many Americans don't even want to fight a foreign war against violent enemies, a domestic war against a non-violent seccessionist group would be a bigger problem.

As for Canada, what would the U.S. gain by making enemies of them if they accept Vermont's independence? It'd be in both sides' best interests not to become enemies over it.

 

[buzz_knox]

As for Canada, what would the U.S. gain by making enemies of them if they accept Vermont's independence? It'd be in both sides' best interests not to become enemies over it.

What does Canada have to gain by refusing a US request to not have dealings with Vermont and acknowledging the validity of an action that will only aggravate Canada's own secession problem in Quebec?