Vermont secession?

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Doesn't matter if it's a postage stamp-sized piece of swamp, if it could secede then that establishes a precedent that no government anywhere wants to establish. Countries will have all-out wars over a parking space for this reason.

The US is now acting as an empire, and all empires do eventually collapse. It's good when it happens non-violently like the Soviet one did. So secession will happen, but it will be driven by economic collapse of the central power and rising economic independence of the local powers. We're not seeing either of those yet, although the central power's economic planning is not looking good right now (too much debt and liabilities looming in the future).
 
In fact letting a territory seceed is only really okay if it is a BENEFIT to the rest of the country. In the case of the former soviet states, the benefit to Russia was likely not having to dump billions of dollars into keeping them, when they were already bankrupt.

There may be a way that part of the US could seperate from the rest IF it could convince the feds that the US would also benefit. (Perhaps as a "free trade zone"?). It would have to be done in the most diplomatic of fashions letting the federal goverment at least appear to be the ones directing the idea, so that they could save face.

After saying all of that. I want to be clear that this would be nearly impossible. and would require decades of work.
 
The US will break apart at some point. But it will be economics that will cause the break.

The VT thing isn't even as remotely possible as the FreeState Project, and the Wyoming Free State Project.

Those things being said, I think the break will be in my lifetime. It was solidified the moment we issued bonds to the Chinese to fight the "War on Terrorism."
 
So long as they take those commies Ben and Jerry with them I am okay with it :neener:

Breaking up the US are we? I want all of Texas North of San Antonio...:evil:
 
Mordecai and Young Gun are right. Economics leads, politics follows. Sooner or later the eocnomics will lead the United States to become the No Longer United States.

Symptoms of that will be when the major economic states here (California, etc) start becoming more focused on themselves, and start becoming unhappy that their money or jobs or whatever are being syphonned off to somewhere else. Meanwhile the central government becomes weaker and runs out of money. The currency crumbles. Californians start using some other currency. When you start seeing things like that happening, that's when a major break-up is on its way. I don't see anything like that happening. Right now the feds suck away huge amounts of money but it's not enough to ruin people or destroy the economy, so people tolerate it.

The US, and all other empires, will break up, maybe within some of our lifetimes, but not now.
 
The federal reserve note (I shall refrain from calling it a "dollar" since only gold and silver are recognized by the Constitution as legitimate money) is already worthless fiat paper, it's just a question of when do enough people wake up and realize it and panic. I'm not sure when that will happen, but I suspect within a decade or two.
 
Unless you have a willingness to let a territory go, the seceders will need to make sure that military power can't be used. We're approaching this point. The army is stretched thin, with worn out equipment. We're spending billions overseas. In a few years, D.C. probably wouldn't be capable of fighting a civil war. There's also the fact that there's a risk that troops won't take up arms against other Americans.

I'd say go for it Vermont. At the least, we'll see what kind of tactics are used against them, and we can plan the next attempt.

I was looking at a somewhat divided America for a story setting. Rocky Mountains sucede after a protracted fencing match with D.C. This interim work fills most of the needs of a successful sucession. Economic viability, political will, and building a military capability to repel an attempt to keep them in. Cultural will I don't think would be a problem. There's a lot of conservatives in that area, and there is enough money to localize industries.

I could get into more detail with this, but most of those points have been covered elsewhere in the thread, and in others. I will share my map though.;)
 

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The federal government, with all their alphabet organizations, have way too much power to just allow a state to secede.
 
They are more of the latte, chai, Volvo driving liberals than the old hippy types that started this movement many years ago. The problem is that the new age materilistic liberals are now the ones in charge in Vermont.

Nothing a one-way ticket to Seattle wouldn't fix. :D

2) Banking: Become the Switzerland or Cayman Islands of North America.

and

But that's a nonsense scenario. It won't happen because none of the business or government leaders around the world want to see a dollar collapse.

Either of those scenarios only require the people with the real money to make
that decision. If they determine Vermont is to be such a haven, then it's
done and they will be left alone. If some local state group decides to do
this without the appropriate outside blessing, they will be crushed.

A USD collapse, devaluation, and depreciation are all different things. The
$$$'s in your pocket are becoming worth less. We could argue as to the
cause and if there's a conscious direction to it, but it's still happening
nonetheless.

Unless you have a willingness to let a territory go, the seceders will need to make sure that military power can't be used. We're approaching this point. The army is stretched thin, with worn out equipment. We're spending billions overseas. In a few years, D.C. probably wouldn't be capable of fighting a civil war. There's also the fact that there's a risk that troops won't take up arms against other Americans.

and

The federal government, with all their alphabet organizations, have way too much power to just allow a state to secede.

Normally, the central gov't has just run the "printing press" and paid for
everything to maintain this control with their near-perpetual IOUs. It's hard
to tell where globalization is going to take this country, but at some point
things like our domestic growth, standard of living, etc are going to have to
hit a certain balance with the rest of the world. At some point, people will
see that those IOUs are going to have an expiration date in their useful
application. Again, this might be an outside decision to force certain changes
within the US, or it might be a time when pure uncontrolled real world economics
take over --despite the domestic PPT. Just keep an eye on China.

I would be more concerned about the federal government's short-term response
regarding gun control should there be an increased potential for break-up
or the real risk of an economic smack-down on the Middle Class....actually,
one of those is beginning to happen right now and lo and behold, what
are we hearing discussion of yet again on the Hill? ;)
 
California can stay

Just get the population to secede.

Alternatively, draw a line between Merced and Fresno (or even North of San Francisco and South of Sacramento), creating California North and South.

California South can secede. Anybody who wants to leave goes there, those who want to stay with the U.S. moves North.

On second thought, the line goes between Merced and Fresno. The North gets at least one decent harbor.

Both parts get huge agricultural areas and vast swathes of wilderness. Both parts get usable harbors.

Everyone gets a chance to choose the half wherein they want to live.

The CURRENT government of California goes with the Southern half and a new government is constituted for the Northern half.

Everyone in the Northern half gets issued a rifle; everyone in the Southern half is disarmed. (Hey, it's my idea, so it's my rules!)

The Southern half will be renamed "Utopia" and the Northern half will be renamed "Eleytheria" (or some other suitable cool word translated into an ancient language).

Oh, and I'm thinking we'll need a wall.
 
None of these things are remotely realistic until there is a financial collapse of the Federal government.

Fixed it for you.

Financial collapse is inevitable. The Federal government has debt from $40 to $70 trillion in today's dollars more than it has revenue. There is literally no way for them to cut spending or raise enough revenue to make up this shortfall. But even if there was a way out, no politician today is going to take it... in their minds, why should they expend political capital to fix a problem that isn't really going to be noticed by most Americans for years to come?

http://en.sevenload.com/videos/R7hPkWi/60-Minutes-interview-with-David-Walker
 
The US will break apart at some point. But it will be economics that will cause the break.

Those things being said, I think the break will be in my lifetime. It was solidified the moment we issued bonds to the Chinese to fight the "War on Terrorism."

The Chinese already hold hundreds of billions in T-bills. They hold our economy in the palm of their hand... if they felt that economic devastation in the US were to their benefit, it'd be TEOTWAWKI the next day here, literally.

I agree with you about the end being in our lifetimes. Probably well within. I wouldn't be surprised if we fall off of a cliff within 10 years.
 
Financial collapse is inevitable. The Federal government has debt from $40 to $70 trillion in today's dollars more than it has revenue. There is literally no way for them to cut spending or raise enough revenue to make up this shortfall. But even if there was a way out, no politician today is going to take it... in their minds, why should they expend political capital to fix a problem that isn't really going to be noticed by most Americans for years to come?

Well yeah, what happens is empires have excellent credit and everyone lends them tons of money, but the rules of reality apply even to empires, so empires eventually hit a credit / confidence crisis. Ours will come.
 
VT could be taken over from a boycott of Ben & Jerry’s The (biggest polluter in VT do a goggle on that) and Green Mountain coffee. (Hate to see that as it is the only drinkable coffee in the NE)

Get rid of the socialist implants from NY and CT and VT is a great state.
 
At the risk of the moderators closing this thread;

May I flip a virtual middle finger at the "current" federal draconian government?

Bush, what a disappointment to freedom.

Taxes, didn't we dump some tea against that?

2A, isn't that the difference between free men and slaves?

Live Free or DIE!!!

We really need to privatize education, so the next generation doesn't fall in enemy hands...
 
We really need to privatize education, so the next generation doesn't fall in enemy hands...

There are private and charter school routes......

BTW, anyone heard of the Canadian native tribes calling for a railway blockade
later this summer? No? Didn't thinks so. Some of them have for all intent and
purpose gone autonomous as it is over the last few years. Maybe THR has
some Canadian readers who could elaborate a bit more on this so as to shed
some light on how things could run for a small state like VT.
 
Now here is an idea. We vote DC out of the union. Now I know some of you are thinking that they are not really in the union right now but I say make it official. They take everyone in the fed with them.

Not only do they go but they also assume all the debt they wrote in the last 25 years with them. This works out to about $20,000,000 for every man, woman and child in the city. This will eliminate an astonishing number of lawyers, politicians, lobbyists, freeloaders and assorted criminals.

I guess we can keep the pentegon, it is in Va. We make a new capital in the geographic center of CONUS say in the midwest somewhere.
 
I hope they do secede, they're the first state to elect a socialist senator. I went skiing there once it's basically Canada but without the horrible gun laws.
 
This has been a very interesting thread. I have several serious questions:

1) Even if a state successfully seceeded by vote of it's population, what would prevent the Feds from simply not recognizing it? I.E. FBI agents show up and arrest people for Federal crimes, IRS indicts people from not paying their Federal taxes, Feds still collect gas tax, etc. How would secession be enforced in reality?

2) Why do people say the U.S. is an "Empire"? Strictly speaking, "empires" have protectorates, territories that pay taxes but do not have representation. The last time I checked, each state does indeed have representation in the Congress.

3) I do not believe that economic collapse is necessary for radical political change. For example, the Founding Fathers were neither poor or starving when they decided to rebel. Why do so many people believe that every major political event in history is a response to an economic state rather than other causes? Ideas *do* matter. Especially deeply-held ones, like religion or a belief in Freedom.

4) I do agree that the U.S. dollar is in trouble. What can one do *personally* in anticipation of it's collapse? Mortgage everything you have (so the amount owed is worthless after the collpse) or pay off all debts (so you own outright all your material possessions)? Of course, there is my signature line.:)
 
1) Even if a state successfully seceeded by vote of it's population, what would prevent the Feds from simply not recognizing it? I.E. FBI agents show up and arrest people for Federal crimes, IRS indicts people from not paying their Federal taxes, Feds still collect gas tax, etc. How would secession be enforced in reality?
Arrest the agents. Or the person being arrested shoots the feds. I'd also imagine customs stations on the highways and other such things would basically be a smack in the face of D.C. Anyway you look at it, someone gets arrested, or someone gets shot. Then force escelates.

I'd imagine the first shots would be FEDSWAT versus local/state SWAT. After that better hope you have an army. And an air force, and...

Can we just start shooting them already?
 
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