very odd question about the Beretta 92

[BluesDancer]

Here is a hypothetical: you start with a stock Beretta 92/M9. You remove both grip panels. Can it be fired in this configuration (for a short time)?

I guess another way of asking is: will the operation of the pistol firing constantly expose the firing hand on the grip to direct gases, mass doses of direct heat, friction, etc - either immediately or after prolonged firing?

I know this is a stupid question, and certainly not recommended, but is it feasible and can it be done safely?

 

[dodo bird]

What happened? Did you lose your grips? It should work just fine. I would not target shoot with it, just for emergency use.

 

[mgmorden]

The only time you'd have an issue is if the grips are holding something on. IE, on my Tokarev M57, the grip panels keep the safety from coming out.

You also have a greater opportunity to introduce lint/dirt/etc from the outside into the inner workings of the gun, but other than that, yeah, it should shoot fine, albeit uncomfortably.

 

[BluesDancer]

Haha no I did not lose them, although when my S&W revolver grips broke, I oddly took it as a positive thing because I bought some ahrends grips for it.

I guess you could say that I am trying to see if a person with smaller hands can comfortably fire the M92 at the range in a limited capacity (read: 50 rounds maximum in an hour, no more than 3 rounds per magazine fired, not all at once) without risk of hand damage.

The only time you'd have an issue is if the grips are holding something on.

It didn't look like it. I checked it out last night. It looks like all that the grips do is cover and protect the magazine well; nothing appears to be connected to them.

 

[mgmorden]

I guess you could say that I am trying to see if a person with smaller hands can comfortably fire the M92 at the range in a limited capacity (read: 50 rounds maximum in an hour, no more than 3 rounds per magazine fired, not all at once) without risk of hand damage.

With that said, then your answer is no, with the operative word being comfortably. For the most part, the grips are specifically there for comfort. If it's for range shooting, you'd do better to let this person shoot a slimmer gun. Maybe one of 9mm 1911's or even a Kahr.

 

[Duelist]

Seems to me that if a person's hands are too small to adequately control the weapon, they should not be firing it. I have relatively small hands and I can really only fire the 92 in single action.

 

[BluesDancer]

I guess you could say that I am trying to see if a person with smaller hands can comfortably fire the M92 at the range in a limited capacity (read: 50 rounds maximum in an hour, no more than 3 rounds per magazine fired, not all at once) without risk of hand damage.

With that said, then your answer is no, with the operative word being comfortably. For the most part, the grips are specifically there for comfort. If it's for range shooting, you'd do better to let this person shoot a slimmer gun. Maybe one of 9mm 1911's or even a Kahr.

I very much agree with you, kind sir. However, the M9 is the only centerfire autoloading pistol I own right now, so I have to make do with what I have, or not make do at all. If removing the grips will make a de-facto 'slimmer' firearm for ONLY this specific situation (without sacrificing safety), then I have no qualms about it. I'm limited at the moment, so I am just trying to make do with what I have...

Seems to me that if a person's hands are too small to adequately control the weapon, they should not be firing it.

I agree. It is a big gun - grips or no grips, so I may not have this person shoot it anyways. I will have to see.

 

[cl4de6]

If you have the money, you can get thiner Alumagrips. Hogue makes thin aluminium grips as well. If the person can't grip comfortably with the thin aluminum grips, they probably shouldn't be shooting that weapon.

I wouldn't fire it without the grips on the handgrip. I think that the metal would cut into your hand from the recoil. Can you fire it this way? Yes. Should you in a non-emergency? No.

You don't provide a lot of information in your post, but I'm guessing that you have a wife/girlfriend or child that you want to instruct.

If you live in a free state (ie: Not NJ like me) go out and but a cheap .22 plinker to teach them shooting. You can even stay within the Beretta brand The NEOS may be just what you are looking for.

 

[BluesDancer]

I wouldn't fire it without the grips on the handgrip. I think that the metal would cut into your hand from the recoil. Can you fire it this way? Yes. Should you in a non-emergency? No.

You don't provide a lot of information in your post, but I'm guessing that you have a wife/girlfriend or child that you want to instruct.

If you live in a free state (ie: Not NJ like me) go out and but a cheap .22 plinker to teach them shooting. You can even stay within the Beretta brand The NEOS may be just what you are looking for.

Well, here's the skinny. I was considering starting another thread within the next few days but I suppose I will mention it now. I plan on taking a co-worker, a 19-year old girl, shooting for the first time. I am 23. The following was what I had in mind:

First, 30-45 minutes in a quiet place - going over gun safety (four rules, the 180, etc etc), pistol operation, and basic pistol marksmanship. I would also have her feel all of my guns to see which ones she thinks she would be more comfortable shooting.

Second, go to the range. Possibly have her watch other shooters for 5-10 minutes if she wants, then begin to shoot. I would start her off on a .22 semi-auto (S&W 22A), and possibly move up to a .38 special revolver or my 9mm (the M9) later if she feels comfortable doing so.

The only thing I haven't really thought about is if she cant grip the .22 well from the get-go. That would stink because I would not really be nuts about starting her with .38's. She is a smaller girl, enough said. Two main things I would emphasize - SAFETY and FUN.

I am going to inspect my M9 later and see if the whole 'metal cutting into the hand during recoil' thing might be an issue. The grip edges didn't seem sharply cut, but I will double-check that again later after work.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Did you realize that the right grip panel also serves the purpose of retaining the trigger bar?

 

[BluesDancer]

I'm off to work in 5 minutes, so this will be my last post until tonight. But:

Did you realize that the right grip panel also serves the purpose of retaining the trigger bar?

What is a trigger bar? I opened up the right grip panel 10 minutes ago and dry fired it while looking at the grip area. Nothing seemed off, but then again there wasn't a live round inside being fired either. I was wondering if you could go into a little detail about the whole trigger bar mechanism??

 

[9mmepiphany]

The trigger bar is the piece of metal running on the outside of the frame just under the slide. It is connected to the top of the trigger, runs on the outside of the frame and under the right grip panel. It connects the trigger to the sear. It moves back and forth when you operate the trigger

 

[NG VI]

Also you might want to just leave it alone and try to show her how to properly grip it, see if she doesn't surprise you by handling it just fine as is.

Plenty of small statured servicemembers deal with the 92 platform just fine, even if it isn't best.

 

[Magnuumpwr]

Two main things I would emphasize - SAFETY and FUN.

You answered your own question about shooting the gun without grips.

 

[Chindo18Z]

BluesDancer: I think your idea is a bad one. Here's why...

1. Your 19 year-old female probably falls within the median of human body size and stature. She should be able to grasp the Beretta. We have tiny women in the military who are able to do so. I have taught a 12 year-old girl to handle the 92. I don't think your friend will actually have an issue. Why don't you just have her try handling the weapon before you over think an unlikely problem.

2. As mentioned by others, grips are designed to be ergonomically comfortable; bare frames with grip bushing protrusion are not. You could potentially turn her off to shooting when something on the grip nicks her hand during recoil. Furthermore, without the grips, practical accuracy is liable to be very poor. "Hmmmn, an uncomfortable gun that doesn't hit well, and bites my hand...gee thanks."

3. As 9mmepiphany pointed out, the right grip panel covers the trigger bar (a moving piece of the weapon). More importantly, it keeps the trigger bar spring (a small wire spring) from popping off of the frame. I would expect that spring to dislodge and be lost in the grass, gravel, or range floor within a few shots. At that point your trigger will swing loosely (as if it were on safe) and the weapon won't fire unless you hold it upside down (another poor way to instruct a new shooter). Broken and lost trigger bar springs are a common bane of military instructors when the springs either 1) break during firing or 2) fall off the weapon and become lost during cleaning of the pistol (with the grip plate removed).

The trigger bar and trigger bar spring (also called a trigger return spring) are listed as parts #27 & #28 in this linked schematic from Brownells:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=0/sid=882/schematicsdetail/92_96_FS___D___M___22_Practice_Kit

In answer to one of your original questions, the weapon will mechanically fire, but probably not for very long nor will she shoot it very well.

I've never seen or heard of any instructor recommending grip-less shooting of the M92 during the 26 years that I've been handling, carrying, and instructing the same weapon.

 

[Remllez]

Trace the grips onto cardboard or tin cut them out and duct tape them securely in place.
You could even make em palm swells if you want...


Of course I'm kidding.....kids don't try this at home.

 

[Rocketmedic]

Teach her how to hold the pistol in its stock condition. Plenty of women and children have learned to shoot with M9s.

 

[BluesDancer]

I just want to say, thank you all for your inputs! It's why I love THR. It seems now that this idea is stupid, but hey, I'm learning stuff that I didn't know before...

If any have recommendations on how to teach a first-time shooter in addition to what I mentioned in #9, please chime in. This is my first time teaching someone how to shoot pistols.

The trigger bar is the piece of metal running on the outside of the frame just under the slide. It is connected to the top of the trigger, runs on the outside of the frame and under the right grip panel. It connects the trigger to the sear. It moves back and forth when you operate the trigger

Gotcha - I always knew the trigger bar was there, I just didn't know that it was called that or what it did. I'm looking at my M9 with the right grip off now. So then, if I am looking at the mechanism right, the sear is a silver-colored metal piece which the trigger bar pushes forward when firing, correct? What does the sear do? It looks like the sear goes up into the chamber, and ends to the right and the rear of the magazine when seated.

Also you might want to just leave it alone and try to show her how to properly grip it, see if she doesn't surprise you by handling it just fine as is. Plenty of small statured servicemembers deal with the 92 platform just fine, even if it isn't best.

1. Your 19 year-old female probably falls within the median of human body size and stature. She should be able to grasp the Beretta. We have tiny women in the military who are able to do so. I have taught a 12 year-old girl to handle the 92. I don't think your friend will actually have an issue. Why don't you just have her try handling the weapon before you over think an unlikely problem.

Good points. I probably am overthinking this. God knows she might grip the gun fine.

3. As 9mmepiphany pointed out, the right grip panel covers the trigger bar (a moving piece of the weapon). More importantly, it keeps the trigger bar spring (a small wire spring) from popping off of of the frame.

I see the trigger bar spring in the frame now. What does it do?

Teach her how to hold the pistol in its stock condition. Plenty of women and children have learned to shoot with M9s.

Will do. Do you have any recommendations? I plan to see if she can reach the trigger while in DA mode first. If she cant, I'll try SA mode.

 

[mgmorden]

Teach her how to hold the pistol in its stock condition. Plenty of women and children have learned to shoot with M9s.

Indeed. Women are a lot more capable than a lot of men give them credit for. I know several girls that would be pretty offended if I tried to dumb down a mean ol' gun for a poor, helpless little girl (that was saracastic if you couldn't tell ).

Give her a chance to shoot the weapon properly. Don't assume that because she's female she's somehow completely incompatible with firearms and they therefor must be adjusted for some special case.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Gotcha - I always knew the trigger bar was there, I just didn't know that it was called that or what it did. I'm looking at my M9 with the right grip off now. So then, if I am looking at the mechanism right, the sear is a silver-colored metal piece which the trigger bar pushes forward when firing, correct? What does the sear do? It looks like the sear goes up into the chamber, and ends to the right and the rear of the magazine when seated.

Referring to the schematic in Chindo18Z's post #15, the sear is #40. It doesn't go into the chamber, it's main function is to release the hammer to strike the firing pin

I see the trigger bar spring in the frame now. What does it do?

The trigger bar spring returns the trigger bar into place after it is disconnected by the recoiling slide

 

[Chindo18Z]

BluesDancer: Try this interactive webpage re: Beretta 92

http://www.genitron.com/Basics/Beretta92/New-Beretta-92.html

It's all very informative, but the button marked "The Trigger and Firing Pin Catch" will graphically depict the actions/relationship of trigger, trigger bar, and trigger bar spring.

For practical purposes, if your trigger bar spring snaps in half or falls off the side of the weapon, you will immediately notice a loose trigger that has no tension (trigger feels exactly as if you had applied the safety...except that the safety lever is on "Fire"). The weapon will not fire.

This is a good reason not to get too agressive with cleaning brushes or rags when cleaning under the right grip plate. The spring can become dislodged or partially displaced from its slot, then covered up by the replaced grip plate, and not discovered until it 1) breaks or 2) completely slips out of place. Always do a visual check before replacing the right grip plate and ensure that the spring is properly in place. Check that the grip plate screws are snug after you replace the grips.

Instructor Tips: Have her dry fire before you ever go hot on the range; this allows her to get used to the weapon's grip, trigger, and manipulation.

Have her start firing at the closest range possible (3-5 yards is ideal). This allows for instant visual feedback (she can see every fresh hole open up on the paper) and allows her to easily and quickly put "body english" corrections to her grip, sight picture, and trigger pull. When she is demonstrating good control and can place the rounds in a shot group, back off to 5-7 yards. If she (or anyone else) tells you that 3 yards is "too close"...tell her that US Special Forces routinely warm up at this range while shooting 1" dot target pasters and that most self defense shootings are at about that range (and inside of 7 yards). Don't allow a first time shooter to shoot at 10, 15, or (God forbid) 25 yards. Point blank is best.

Keep instruction simple. Cover a point and then briefly demonstrate only that point (or simply allow her to try it). Once she gets shooting...let her shoot. Don't step into her space and offer corrections of every other shot she makes. Don't multi-task a new student and don't talk too much. Keep it light and fun. If you act that way, your student will feed off of you and enjoy the learning experience.

Good luck with your instruction.

 

[CCW1911]

I have to disagree that anyone can grip a 92 properly, the trigger reach is long and the grip is big. I have had many females and small handed men that could not reach the trigger without compromising the grip. You are wasting your time if she has to use a compromised grip to fire the first round, in a panic situation it won't work out. There are decent quality handguns that can be bought reasonably so she can shoot correctly.

 

[mgmorden]

in a panic situation it won't work out.

Remember the stated purpose here - taking her to the range shooting to have fun. While most of us carry, I think too often some people forget that all shooting isn't always about tactical situations or self defense. Some guns and situations are just about going out and having fun.

 

[Ramone]

My ex was five foot nothing, 100 soaking wet after a big meal. She never had an issue handling any full size firearms. She likely would have throat punched me if I suggested she couldn't. You MIGHT find that eye and ear protection fitment is an issue if she has a small head. find out before you get to the range. Kid sized eyes and ears are availible.

Buy some snap caps. In a quiet place, making sure there is NO AMMO in the same room, let her 'play' with it a bit- swaping mags, working the slide & safety, dry firing. make her dry fire with a coin balanced on top to get trigger control in hand. define 'safe' directions in that room. show her how to do a press-check.

Use card board cut outs of front and rear sights on a target to demostrate sight picture.

Discuss how you are going to set up the table at the range- one pistol with only that pistols ammo on the table at a time.

On the range, use Small bullseye targets- aim small, miss small. Try for a week day if you can do it- less waiting time/distractions.

Let her pick which to shoot first- my first pistol was a .45acp- at age eight. it made the smaller calibers seem like nothing, instead of the larger calibers seeming huge.

'short load' mags for starters- five rounds per mag. Swap targets often, so she can save her best group- and be sure to get a picture of her with it.

Stress the importance of washing up after firing- lead and powder residue are toxic.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

As a temporary measure, you can use friction tape to cover up the panel holes in the grip. For more permanant use, you can get extra slim grip panels from several makers.