VFW Oath isn't giving me a warm and fuzzy.....

[pax]

ANM,

No worries -- it was a judgement call.

BluesBear -- not quite nuff said. Are you saying that we've all already pledged allegiance to the gov't by pledging allegiance to the Republic? or are you saying that you'll pledge to the Republic, but not to the gov't of the Republic?

pax

 

[Brian Dale]

"... nor in any way use my influence against its Laws or Institutions."

Now that's scary. Not vote? not speak? not run for office against an incumbent nor take part in campaigns?

As chief executive, the President is charged with enforcing the laws, through his subordinates in the many departments of the executive branch. His oath of office is to the Constitution, not to whatever the existing laws might be, nor to the elected officeholders and employees who work in the government. If his oath of office is thus, given the nature of his job, then how much sense does it make for the regular citizens who hire him and hire the Congress to take an oath not even to use their influence against laws or institutions?

With regard to the oath's author: The road to Where is paved with good intentions?

Edited to add: pax, government officials work for you and for me, not the other way 'round. Unwavering loyalty to the Constitution is expected and required of them, and loyalty to their voters is a part of the deal for elected officials. My loyalty to them is a favor that can be earned, and it will be granted for as long as their actions merit such loyalty.

 

[Abominable No-Man]

You're reading too much into it.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands", means that you have pledged your loyalty to
A) the Flag, and B) The Republic (which, IMO, ultimately is a lifestyle, enforced by minimal legislation) A Republic can have a bad government.

So by my way of thinking, that means to the concept of government as originally conceived by the Founding Fathers, who DID, BTW throw in that thing in there about removing a corrupt government by force, if necessary.

In a nutshell, I mean.

Or am I wrong?

ANM

 

[BluesBear]

ANM you are correct sir.

Pax, I still quite often say the Pledge of Allegiance just because I can. It was one of the first things, probably the very first thing, I learned in 1st grade wayyyy back in 1960. I had teachers who taught me what it meant. I still to this day respect my flag and am mortified by those who show a lack of respect and lack of knowledge for what it stands for.

I will never swear allegiance to a government. To me "the Republic for which it stand" means the concept of the "government by the people, for the people" that our founding fathers envisioned. As I see it you and I, as well as most here on THR, ARE the Republic.

I vividly recall that the History books we used in the 4th grade constantly referred to the United States as a "democracy". Miss Kassenbrock (my teacher) has us cross the word democracy out ever time we saw it and write in the word "Republic". Miss K was a socialist. If I had known better back then I would have written in Democratic Republic.

I love my country and I would rather live here than any place on earth, (just as I chose to move to Washington state 4 years ago) and I have seen quite a large part of it. But it saddens me to watch it deteriorate almost in front of my eyes.

Perhaps if more children were taught the meaning of the Pledge of Allegiance, as well as the meaning of the Constitution, Bill Of Rights and the Declaration of Independence we could reverse the trend.

 

[Quartus]

Miss K was correct, socialist or not. We have a Republic by design. The FF feared democracy.


For good reasons.

 

[Balog]

I really have to disagree with you about the PoA. I'll never again say it because of one word. "Indivisible." Let me quote James Perloff to illustrate why I object to this. Quote from this page http://www.geocities.com/scvcamp1399/perloff-apology.htm

In 1788, the Massachusetts state convention ratified entry into the Union by a vote of just 187 to 168. Let us suppose that, a couple of years later, a second vote has rescinded the first, and Massachusetts respectfully announced: “Upon further consideration, we have decided that belonging to the Union is not in the state’s best interest.“ I wonder if anyone can imagine George Washington issuing the following proclamation:

“ It has come to my attention that Massachusetts intends to depart the Union. I declare Massachusetts in rebellion! I am requesting the Governors of the states to muster armies which are to proceed to Massachusetts and invade it. I am dispatching federal warships to blockade Boston Harbor. Upon capture, the city is to be burned to the ground. Federal commanders shall torch other Massachusetts cities and towns as they see fit.

“I, George Washington, do further declare, that because the people of Massachusetts have perpetrated this brazen treason, all their rights are forthwith revoked. Of course, if any Massachusetts resident disavows his state’s dastardly decision, and swears an oath of loyalty to the federal government, his rights shall be restored. Such cases excepted, federal soldiers should feel free to loot any Massachusetts home. Crops not seized for army provisions should be destroyed without regards to the needs of the rebels and their families. After all, war is hell.

“And to citizens of other states, take warning! Consorting with the Massachusetts rebels will not be tolerated. It has come to my attention, in fact, that certain leaders and legislators in New Hampshire and Connecticut have expressed sympathy for their cause ! I am ordering federal troops to round up these “border state “ turncoats. They will jailed without hearings. I hereby revoke the right of habeas corpus just accorded under the Constitution. In times as these, suspicion alone shall be suitable cause for imprisonment....â€

 

[TexasVet]

FWIW, the above oath does not exist any longer and has not for decades. The current one states, in the applicable portion, only the following:
"I will bear true allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America-- and I will always be loyal thereto."
The rest is about the organization itself.

As far as being an anti VN vet hangout for drunks, I and about half my little East Texas post (250 enrolled members, maybe 50 at meetings )are VN or later vets, in fact we inducted a female active duty Air Force Sgt currently stationed in Afganistan into our ranks tonight. We also have one Pearl Harbor survivor in the Post. Our Ladies Aux (virtually every wife in the Post) meets at the same time and would beat us about the head if we tried to drive them home after the meetings drunk.
We donate full equipment for two Little League teams in our county, are sending a girls drill team to the Citrus Bowl this year, give out a $500 per semester scholarship to a local senior each year (that means we are helping keep 4 kids at any one time in college), support the local Boys and Girls Club with about 1/3 of their annual budget, give the Boy Scouts a grand a year, PAID for one of the local PD's drug dogs, and donate about 10K to cancer research annually (our Post's pet charity).
Not counting cash to ANY vet in the hospital in our county, Funeral Honor Guards for any vet, free flags for any cemetary, hospital, school or nursing home, a local Service Officer who works (for free) on pensions and benefits, supplying transportation to the 100 mile away VA hospital to anyone who needs it, and at every meeting donate to some local charity who comes to ask for a one time assistance. I believe we gave out 1,250 dollars tonight.
We also have Patriotic essay contests in the local schools, a Christmas party for the disadvantaged kids in the area, help sponsor the Fishing Derby, and are regularly invited to assist in programs at the local schools to educate the kids on history.
The county thinks so highly of our Post that they are dedicating the new Highway bridge as the VFW Memorial Bridge, as the County Judge announced at tonight's dinner before the meeting.
You might take another look at your local Post if you are a vet.

 

[BluesBear]

Red said it almost as good as John Wayne

Since I haven't transcribed "The Pledge Of Allegiance" from the John Wayne album "America, Why I Love Her" I'll just use this one by Red Skelton instead. It's the one he used to tell to young school children.


Pledge of Allegiance
by Red Skelton


I:
Me, an individual, a committee of one.

Pledge:
To give without self-pity.

Allegiance:
My love and my devotion.

To the Flag:
Our standard; Old Glory ; a symbol of Freedom; wherever she waves there is respect, because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts, Freedom is everybody's job.

United:
That means that we have all come together.

States:
Individual communities that have united into forty-eight great states. Forty-eight individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose. All divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common purpose, and that is love for country.

And to the Republic:
Republic - a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people; and it's from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people.

For which it stands

One Nation:
One Nation - meaning, so blessed by God.

Indivisible:
Incapable of being divided.

With Liberty:
Which is Freedom; the right of power to live one's own life, without threats, fear, or some sort of retaliation.

And Justice:
The principle, or qualities, of dealing fairly with others.

For All:
For All - which means, boys and girls, it's as much your country as it is mine.

And now, boys and girls, let me hear you recite the Pledge of Allegiance:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country, and two words have been added to the Pledge of Allegiance: Under God. Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that it's a prayer, and it would be eliminated from schools, too?

Red Skelton



If anyone wants to hear the John Wayne version PM me and I'll send it to you.

 

[Molon Labe]

Originally posted by Swingset:
I'd never swear allegiance to a government, nor would I swear not to bear arms against it.

Amen, brother.

Could you imagine Patrick Henry taking an oath like that?

Isn’t it ironic that we place our founding fathers on pedestals because they took up arms against a government, yet it is considered wrong for anyone else to do the same?