If there are more guns in a specific place, it would make sense that there would be more gun related accidents, kind of like more cars more car accidents, it dosent speak badly about the car, so why should it speak badly for the gun. They are inadimate objects.
VPC Says:'Pro-gun'States With "Weak"Gun Laws Have the Highest Homicide Rates
- Thread starter Winchester 73
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Mr. Designer
Member
Gun violence is a symptom of a much greater problem. The deterioration of the family is the root problem of many social problems we now face.
mike101
Member
If I wasn't banned from commenting on Huffpo yesterday, I would invite Josh to join us in nearly crime free NJ. 
I understand that real estate prices in Camden are quite favorable these days. A buyer's market, you might say.
I understand that real estate prices in Camden are quite favorable these days. A buyer's market, you might say.K-Romulus
Member
A big factor is climate. Every city "up north" knows that summer correlates with a spike in crime rates. Why? Because people can stay out longer, leading to contact and conflict that escalates. Muggers can also ply their trade for hours without freezing their n*uts off.
If those "high gun death" states had Massachusetts' climate, they would have Massachusetts' crime rate. (see the earlier post comparing NE states)
If those "high gun death" states had Massachusetts' climate, they would have Massachusetts' crime rate. (see the earlier post comparing NE states)
I understand that-its just that it seems conservatives,gun owners,etc. seem to let alot slide in the name of lost causes , yet liberals, antis,etc. will raise holy hell over the slightest of inaccuracies.
It just seems that maybe that is why the liberal agenda seems to to move forward while the conservatives seem to spend all of their time compromising.
Winchester 73
member
I really don't think the conservative side is compromising.The NRA is still the 800 pound gorilla.
And the Brady Bunch and the VPC are going absolutely nowhere with their mindless rhetoric.
Just look at public opinion polls.Over 2/3 of Americans believe in the individual right to own a gun for self defense,more concealed carry states than ever.
And attempts like San Francisco and Philly to ban or severely restrict firearms are being shot down(shameless pun)with regularity in the courts.
I think we are on very solid ground and are advancing.
I recall reading a paper to the effect that the proportion or perhaps relative density of Blacks and Hispanics in a given city was the best crime rate predictor.
And sure, considering the FBI statistics, it seems entirely plausible that the staggering per-capita criminality of these minorities (by the way in stark contrast to the "model minorities" a.k.a. north-east Asians) overwhelms whatever other socio-economic factors that may confound this correlation.
I suspect that the level of gun control is among those smaller factors that influence the crime rates, overwhelmed by the demographic realities at hand.
And sure, considering the FBI statistics, it seems entirely plausible that the staggering per-capita criminality of these minorities (by the way in stark contrast to the "model minorities" a.k.a. north-east Asians) overwhelms whatever other socio-economic factors that may confound this correlation.
I suspect that the level of gun control is among those smaller factors that influence the crime rates, overwhelmed by the demographic realities at hand.
Winchester 73
member
This is the hard reality.
You hit it squarely on the head.
When Charlton Heston was asked in an interview 10 years ago why America's violent crime rate was so much higher than most European countries he replied:"It's the demographics".
He was branded as a racist but nothing could be more correct.
It's just not Politically Correct in today's utterly garbage political,social,artistic environment.
We can only go upward,I believe ,as we are at the bottom of the pig trough now.
crazed_ss
Member
So do you guys believe it's the dark skin tone of the minorities that is to blame for the violence in the inner cities? Do you honestly believe being born Black or Hispanic makes a person more prone to committ violent crime?
mike101
Member
"I suspect that the level of gun control is among those smaller factors that influence the crime rates, overwhelmed by the demographic realities at hand"
About a year ago, someone here on THR posted stats regarding this very subject. I wish I could remember who it was , and the source. Anyway, if you removed the inner-city demographic from US homicide stats, our homicide rate is on par with places like Luxembourg. Seriously, it was about the same as many European countries where they don't even allow their subjects to have guns.
And yes, if you ever post something like that on an anti site, they will beat you over the head with the 'Racist Stick'. Apparently they don't have network news on the Moons of Nebia.
About a year ago, someone here on THR posted stats regarding this very subject. I wish I could remember who it was , and the source. Anyway, if you removed the inner-city demographic from US homicide stats, our homicide rate is on par with places like Luxembourg. Seriously, it was about the same as many European countries where they don't even allow their subjects to have guns.
And yes, if you ever post something like that on an anti site, they will beat you over the head with the 'Racist Stick'. Apparently they don't have network news on the Moons of Nebia.
csmkersh
Member
Have you bothered to look at the FBI UCR? Is this just a PC gritch on your part?crazed_ss said:
Take the time to study Table 3, Expanded Homicide Data from the 2006 Uniform Crime Report. You'll find that whites offenders amounted to 5,339 homicides and blacks 6,843.
Hispanics are not broken out as they can be white, Indian, Mexican , South or Central American, Filipino, etc. That data would only be apparent at a local level IF the local PD kept that info. With the PC climate of today, it's not likely.
Rumble
Member
I would guess that other posters are not saying that simply being nonwhite makes one violent. I infer from it that it may have more to do with the fact that fewer whites (compared to blacks or Hispanics) live in the desperately poor, damaged inner-city areas that (as was suggested earlier) may skew national crime rates.
I am not saying that your environment justifies violent crime. However, I would hesitate to accept a theory suggesting that social factors like poverty, joblessness, and so forth have no influence.
Again, I'm not a student of this, and this post may serve only to highlight my ignorance.
I am not saying that your environment justifies violent crime. However, I would hesitate to accept a theory suggesting that social factors like poverty, joblessness, and so forth have no influence.
Again, I'm not a student of this, and this post may serve only to highlight my ignorance.
Bostekrisco
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Re Sam's post above re the FBI table. Can anyone provide insight on the "unknown" entry in the race category?
The only "scientific" study I've ever done is watch the local news. Whenever they show a murder suspect's picture, which is fairly regularly here, it seems pretty obvious what race they are. It seems hard to fathom the FBI wouldn't know the race of a third of the murderers in any given year.
The only "scientific" study I've ever done is watch the local news. Whenever they show a murder suspect's picture, which is fairly regularly here, it seems pretty obvious what race they are. It seems hard to fathom the FBI wouldn't know the race of a third of the murderers in any given year.
OMGWTFBBQ
Member
csmkersh
Member
I've always assumed that this is the sad case where the cops have a DB and no idea who the doer was. Like trauma cases, homicide cases are often solved in the first 48 or not at all. Drive bys contribute to this. Here in SA one might validly assume the doers are Hispanic, but, because of the PC Patrol, it won't make it into the report that way.
Bostekrisco
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As the category for the graph is "murder offenders" I read that as known murderers, not homicides including those where no murderer was determined.
If that were the case, wouldn't the number of unknown murderers in the sex column be the same as in the race column?
I suppose there could be unsolved murders where a witness saw that the murderer was a man (or woman) but couldn't determine race, or vice-versa.
PinoyInFL
Member
One thing we might be overlooking here is that the VPC study is limited to death rates resulting from firearms, and not necessarily the rate of violent crime. If someone gets mugged and beaten to a pulp but survives the attack, that incident will be counted in the violent crime statistics but not on the VPC/CDC study. Based on that I would say that the study is misleading and is definitely an attempt to put a bad slant on gun ownership in general.
csmkersh
Member
romma
Member
These VPC people remind me of the old Saturday Night Live skit,,, "The Whiners".
csmkersh
Member
You're being generous. If one would crunch through the Tabe 20 data with the population data from Table 4, a more appropriate nickname for the VPC would be The Liars.
Violent crime in minority communities has nothing to do with skin color itself. It has a lot to do with economic factors, high numbers of single parent homes, drug use, gang activity, and all sorts of things. There are a whole lot of problems in many of the minority communities these days that are not addressed by the representatives of those people and areas. You can also throw in effectiveness of local law enforcement and the courts. If a rapist/burglar is let out of jail too quickly or doesn't get prosecuted effectively, he is going to do it again. Didn't we see an article last year about a guy in Nebraska that had been arrested 500 or more times? That is a failure of the system/courts.
In addition, I would add that state-by-state comparisons are not accurate when looking at population density alone. It really should be done county by county nationwide comparing low population counties with high population counties. IMO, that would tell you more.
In addition, I would add that state-by-state comparisons are not accurate when looking at population density alone. It really should be done county by county nationwide comparing low population counties with high population counties. IMO, that would tell you more.
According to these same US crime stats, folks of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean background (NE Asian, in other words) have about half the crime rate of the white population. So it's not just a matter of being non-white.
A fresh-off-the-boat Chinese immigrant living in the squalor of San Francisco Chinatown ghetto has (if we oversimplify things by using the national average for the locales in question) 1/16-th the criminal propensity of the US-born black resident of Oakland. So it's not just a matter of poverty.
I grew up in SF and had friends living in Chinatown whom I visited regularly, and it is definitely a ghetto, plenty of poor people living in cramped apartments. But they are learning English, working hard, trying to make a good future for themselves in a new country. No issues whatever walking around there at night. Cops are not afraid of driving through Chinatown.
Now cross the Bay Bridge to Oaktown, yo, and see if you can take a nightly stroll through the projects without a police escort and a trauma plate. Despite being offered every kind of crutch -- affirmative action, scholarships -- people persist in their Third World lifestyle.
This dynamic -- the success and good citizenship on the part of NE Asian immigrants and the criminality and failure of black minorities -- is mirrored in other First World countries so blessed.
Taking a broader look, every place in post-colonial sub-Saharan Africa is a complete ****hole with staggering crime rates. After taking over what was in places decent infrastructure left by the Europeans, severe degradation and lawlessness invariably took over. There is no place in the world where blacks, whether as minorities additionally supported by affirmative-action-type programs or as self-governing nations additionally supported by US and EU aid, are succeeding.
So is everyone in the world racist, keeping the black man (but definitely not the yellow man) down, aid and affirmative action notwithstanding? Is it a reflection of white racism that, in crimes involving participants of different races, blacks are the perpetrators and whites the victims in the vast majority of cases? Yeah. And in the rare instances when whites victimize blacks, it's immediately a hate crime until proven otherwise.
On another tangent, in reply to one of the posters asking "what's with the shade of skin", it's got nothing to do with skin itself. It just happens to be one of many easily visible attributes that serve as good predictors of important social outcomes. Giant wheels on a Buick is an even better predictor, but you take what information is available at a given time.
Anyhow, I'm sorry to have drifted away from the original topic, but this is an important issue before our (fatally fragmented) nation. The demographics are getting worse with every year. The government will not stem the flood of illegals -- Republicans are selling out to employers wanting cheap labor, and Democrats are happy in the long term to have future generations of solid Democrat voters -- welfare for everyone, amigo! All the while the middle class is footing the bill...
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