VT "Corps of Cadets" ?

[TallPine]

I hate to start yet another VT thread, but this article got me to wondering:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...apr25,1,763724.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

The "cadet" was sitting in the front row. What is the "corps of cadets"? Some sort of military group...?

If so, you might already see where my thinking leads .... what if the cadet had been armed?


(arrrghhhh, what a senseless tragedy )

 

[psyopspec]

The term was probably used in lieu of ROTC, or as a more general term if they weren't aware what specific branch of ROTC the student was in. Technically, ROTC falls under Cadet Command, which in turn falls under TRADOC (Training Doctrine/Command, or something to that effect).

 

[SaMx]

Virginia tech is one of the only Universities in the United States that is both a full military and full civilian college. The only other one is Texas A&M (I think).

 

[MechAg94]

Virginia Tech has a Corps of Cadets organization. Several hundred students I believe. I don't think it is quite the same as an ROTC program, but accomplishes the same goal for those seeking military commission.

Texas A&M also has a large Corps of Cadets organization (~2-3000). The entire student body used to be Corps years ago. I wasn't in it so I can't speak as an expert at all.

The only other school that comes to mind is VMI.

 

[Titan6]

VT is a land grant college and as such is required to have an ROTC program. The program at VT is as old as the school and also quite large.

The Corp is a separate entity. You can be in ROTC at VT and not join the Corp and you can join the corp and not seek a commission in the military although you must take four years of ROTC courses (from any branch of the military). Think of it as a miltary school within a school such as they have at Texas A&M where about 10% of the students are in the military side of the school.

They have separate uniforms, rank and command structure within the Corp that is mostly run by the cadet with a few faculty member advisors.

 

[DouglasW]

The Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets has a long and storied history. Currently 700 cadets, 20% female. 80% receive military commissions upon graduation (yeah, I looked into it as a high school senior, way back when):

From here

Welcome to the Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets. Our mission is to graduate leaders of character who are imbued with the concept of service. Since 1872, the Corps of Cadets has produced outstanding leaders for the Commonwealth and the Nation. Seven of our alumni have earned the Medal of Honor, a number exceeded only by West Point and Annapolis. Over 100 of our graduates have been promoted to General and Flag Officer rank. Countless alumni have achieved great success in the professions, business, industry, and public service.

Our leader development program is overseen by the Major General W. Thomas Rice Center for Leader Development. The Rice Center offers a minor in leadership studies. The center sponsors the Cutchins Distinguished Lecture Series, and has brought to campus recognized leaders and opinion-makers including Colin Powell, Stephen Ambrose, George Will, David Gergen, Gloria Borger, Tim Russert, Mary Matalin, and James Carville. The center also presents a regular lecture series by distinguished leaders from across the Nation and administers Cadet Leader School, a five lesson course on the basics of leadership.

The Corps of Cadets is a 24-hour-per-day, 7-days-per-week leadership laboratory. Cadets study leadership, learn from experts, and practice what they have been taught while leading the nearly 800-member Corps of Cadets.

Cadets repeatedly achieve great success at Virginia Tech. During four of the past eight years, the University Man of the Year has been a cadet. For the past three years, the University Undergraduate Leader of the Year has been a cadet. Recently, the cadet who served as Regimental Executive Officer, the number two position in the Corps, also captained the varsity swim team. In both 2001 and 2005 the top Naval ROTC cadet in the entire nation was a member of the Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets. This is an outstanding achievement, as Navy ROTC cadets from nearly 150 schools compete for this award annually.

Our alumni, staff, and cadets are dedicated to the university motto Ut Prosim, “that I may serve.” I am inspired daily by their exemplary leadership, professionalism, and enthusiasm.

What gives me pause about the VT shootings, particularly with the revelation that there were cadets in those classrooms, is 'why didn't anyone physcially resist/try to overpower the shooter'? I wasn't there and can't honestly say how I would have reacted, but even with only rudimentary weapons the victims grossly outnumbered the shooter. Why didn't these future military officers have the presence to lead an attack and overpower the shooter after the first couple of shootings? That question bugs me.

 

[Run&Shoot]

Here is a link on the history of the VT Corps of Cadets

Basically the college was founded as a military academy and each student was a cadet. This was before Norwich introduced the ROTC program in the early 20th century. Cadets often joined active duty military service after graduation and also many times offered themselves for military duty to the Virginia governor. After WW II the Corps brought in various ROTC programs as well.

Over the years cadet service was reduced to only two of the four years and then became optional so that students could choose to be either in the civilian or cadet program. I think it is now standard for non-service military academies to require all cadets to be in one of the ROTC programs, but do ot require them to join the military after graduation.

Basically the corps of cadets at any military college is a great way for students to experience/enjoy a strict military environment and the associated camaraderie whether they plan to commission or not.

More to the point of a THR post, the cadets often are issued deactivated rifles of some sort (Norwich issues M14s without the firing pin) for drill. Cadets may or may not get some form of training in marksmanship and/or hand to hand fighting. Many though are in the ROTC program and/or National Guard or even active duty enlisted training programs in which they go through sniper, airborne, or any number of other military programs. They would never have functioning arms on campus as part of their Corps membership, but they would be likely to have an above average mindset of alertness and fighting back.

I like your train of thought though, wouldn't it be nice if every cadet could carry their fully functioning M14 with a bandoleer of mags to class? Or at least a 1911 in a leather flap holster.

 

[Run&Shoot]

Virginia tech is one of the only Universities in the United States that is both a full military and full civilian college. The only other one is Texas A&M (I think).

Aaaack! Don't forget Norwich University!

Norwich was the first private military academy (1819), was the instigator of the ROTC program, and its founder, Capt. Alden Partridge traveled up and down the eastern coast assisting many other private and state military academies such as VMI. Norwich was the first school to offer an engineering degree program, and first academy to go co-ed. And they're darn proud of all that!

I'm still lusting over the cadets' M14s. I am sure they get to think of them as 9 pounds of cumbersome weight, but in later years some will appreciate what a grand weapon it is.

 

[Titan6]

Run & Shoot- It was not so long ago when they had 100 fully functioning M16s, several 60s and 100s of other assorted other weapons at the campus in an arms room.

Things change. They no longer have them and they were just as helpless that fatal day as all the other disarmed victims were.

 

[MechAg94]

The only time I have seen Texas A&M Corps members with weapons is in an honor guard unit called the Ross Volunteers. They use chromed up bolt actions for salutes at certain ceremonial occasions such as Silver Taps.

I am not sure I could say that the Corps members are any more or less responsible with firearms than any other student. They do get extra discipline and leadership training, but I guess it depends on how far you take that.

I have questioned the idea that some students should have been able to fight back. It is unknown if any of them tried. I don't want to say anything bad about the students since some of them could have tried and failed. We only know for sure that some of the students didn't try.

 

[MechAg94]

Run&Shoot, I hadn't heard of Norwich. Thanks for the link.

Texas A&M was just one of the land grant schools established in the late 1800's with the requirement that they include military training. It was a pretty small school up until the 60's. Some fortunate oil revenue that was distributed between universities in Texas and great leadership from University President Earl Rudder started us on the road to 40,000 undergraduate students today. I hope some of you will recognize Rudder's name from WWII.

 

[Titan6]

Up the road at VMI they still have many fully functioning M16s, M1s, M1As, m14s, M1911S, M9s, .22s, shotguns, 8'' howitzers etc... Their drill rifles are only missing the firing pin, and are otherwise fully functioning.

They have never had a single incident of on campus shooting.

 

[Run&Shoot]

I did not know much about the private and state academies until my daughter attended Norwich (graduates in May!). All of these institutions are unheralded treasures to our national character (well at least not touted enough).

I would urge any HS graduate looking for a college to attend to consider either a service academy or one of the non-service academies. You will likely come across many firearms enthusiasts as well. Plus, who else gets woken up at 6am by a howitzer?

What are all of the military academies? The ones I know of are:
Norwich, Citadel, VMI, VT, Texas A&M

Wouldn't it be nice to invite cadets to a free day at Knob Creek?

 

[Titan6]

You left out the service acadamires but you hit all of the others I know of.

There are also many Junior Military Colleges where a graduate is eligible for a commission in the National Guard or Reserve but not active duty. By completing a four year degree they can also obtain a commission active duty. This is where we get the rare 18-20 year old O1.

Is your daughter seeking commission?

 

[TallPine]

I like your train of thought though, wouldn't it be nice if every cadet could carry their fully functioning M14 with a bandoleer of mags to class? Or at least a 1911 in a leather flap holster.

That is what I was thinking...

I did not meant at all to cast any aspersion on any of the unfortunate students, least of all the deceased cadet. But just maybe he could have made a big difference had he been allowed to carry a sidearm.

 

[Titan6]

I hear what you are saying but cadets generally do not carry handguns anywhere. Cadets that carry rifles have had them deactivated in some way and never carry ammo unless at the range.

Keep in mind cadets are still subject to civil law and there are not really many allowances made as they do not conduct military operations (at least not since the Civil War) and most military operations inside the US are forbidden anyway.

Most cadets are trained in firearm usage and the cadets in the USMC and Army programs get more than most but they are still not LEOs or given any arrest powers so are not issued weapons. Military personnel on active duty are required by regulation to quell violence, insurrections, defend life and government property if they have the means but the regulations are dreadfully unclear. I would have thought the incident would have qualified though...

 

[psyopspec]

One of the most disappointing things about my ROTC program is the wall of shooting trophies we still keep despite not having a team since the early '90s. The indoor range in the basement of the building is now a storage room since it was closed due to EPA or insurance concerns.

 

[Titan6]

Psyopsec- Sounds like a good ROTC project. You can sell it easily to the head of your program under marksmanship improvement. If you want help send me PM. While I have not done anything with ROTC in some time I can point you in the right direction.

One of the things the ROTC cadets at VT did not so many years ago was assist in the construction of an open publc FREE range out in the National Forest near Blacksburg. I hear it has sadly fallen into disrepair but it was once a fine range.

 

[Southern Gobbler]

VTCC grad here. The only thing issued to cadets are demilitarized 1903 Springfield rifles mostly used for drill. These have no firing pin and the barrels are plugged with lead. Quite a waste if you ask me. They just recently they re-militarized a couple of them and they get taken out to the range once a semester. I believe the are still kept in the arms room in one of the barracks. Don't know about ammo. Kinda makes me wish we had some of the cool toys like at VMI.

 

[Titan6]

Gobbler- You do realize that VMI has the guns that used to belong to VT?

 

[Southern Gobbler]

Grrrrr......

Titan - I had no idea but to be honest it doesn't surprise me. Ever since the civilian population here began outnumbering cadets back in the 50's the Corps of Cadets have been under greater contol of the university. And with the current policies it doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't allow the corps to keep those firearms. Any idea when they got sent to VMI?

 

[Titan6]

It was a while back in the early 90s IIRC. The issue was not campus politics but rather a lost weapon (a real big oops). The weapons all belong to the Army and the Army can put them where they like.

In mind it should not have resulted in them giving up their armory but that was the call.

 

[Xarph]

I was in the Virgina Tech (VPI) Corps of Cadets in 1963 and 1964. We were issued M1 rifles for drill purposes. The M1s had their firing pins removed. Below is a picture of me with my M1 in 1964.

There was a gun store in Christiansberg (a few miles from VPI) that sold M1 firing pins, 7 round clips and 30.06 ammo. Many cadets would put a firing pin in the issue M1, break it down to three pieces and carry it off campus in our laundry bags and go shooting. Some even used them for dear hunting. This was, of course, strictly against the rules.

I did however, have a fully functioning shotgun, .22 rifle and a Winchester 30-30 lever action rifle hanging on the wall in a rifle rack in my dorm room. These weapons were in open sight in our unlocked rooms (We had an effective honor system at that time). Our dorm rooms were regularly inspected by ROTC officers.Obviously there was no "no guns on campus" rules at the time. The only comments I ever got about these firearms were complements and questions. Time have changed.

====

The reason I came to this site was to find out was has happened to .223 ammo sales. A couple of years ago I could buy 1000 rounds for about $135. Now the price is almost $300 and many places are out of stock. What is going on?

 

[spaceCADETzoom]

But just maybe he could have made a big difference had he been allowed to carry a sidearm.

hehe. Anyone who's been a cadet (or has been their cadre, or otherwise spent much time with them individually) would find the idea of cadets with sidearms absolutely hilarious.

Individuals having CCW is understandable...but being a cadet doesn't make them magically superior. They're regular students. Most of the cadet corps at these historically military schools aren't even "in" the military at all...and of those that are, they're no more "qualified" than any other in usage of a handgun. IN places like T A&M and VT, most of the cadet corps is nothing much more than a fraternal organization. Cadets, of those that actually contracted and seeking a commission are initial entry semi-soldiers. They're not fully trained...as much as a week 6 basic training recruit is not a fully funtioning enlisted soldier, a contracted cadet is not a fully functioning commissioned officer.

Also, keep in mind actual active duty Soldiers are restricted in carrying sidearms while not in a specific duty function. The military is downright fascist in its allowance of issued weapons and privately owned weapons. Active duty JOe on post is not armed 95% of the time (and NONE carry concealed save maybe CID or something). Why would college students who happen to be cadets (and in cases like VT, most likely not even in the Army)?

 

[crebralfix]

I was a member of the VTCoC. I'll never forget having to "drag" down the sides of the halls, with only 90 degree turns at a near run to go around garbage cans and upperclassmen...after asking permission at mach 9:

"goodafternooncadetsargeantenglishnewcadetcrebralfixrequestspermissiontopass."

"Carry on."

::drags on at 90 mph to the next upperclassman::

I'll also never forget how people would forget the time of day...requests would start at "good morning" at one end of the hall and change to "good evening" by the time they got to the other end.

Then there was Cadet Seman...who was in Navy ROTC. Oh, man, the jokes....