Walther CCP

[Storm]

Frankly, I've never found the PPS to have a stout recoil. It's rather soft-shooting for its size, and certainly shoots like a much larger gun.

Exactly.

 

[C0untZer0]

People who have both on the Walther forum say the CCP is much easier to rack and recoils less than the PPS.

My Glock 17L is much easier to rack and recoils less than the Kahr CM9.

The CCP is larger and heavier than the PPS, that might account for some of the difference in the perceived recoil.

A person I know purchased a CCP the other day and 100 rounds out of 100 standard pressure rounds had failures - half and half of FTE, and failure to feed, so:

1) If I have a choice between a gun that is super-easy to rack but can't fire more than one round before needing manual loading versus a gun that is only slightly more difficult to rack but by all accounts functions reliably, I'll choose the gun that actually works.

2) Maybe if the gun was sprung correctly it would work but not be so easy to rack?

 

[AustinTX]

UMAREX will not let this gun fail and tarnish the Walther name. Unless all is lost at corporate HQ.

What previous action by Umarex is the basis for such confidence?

 

[HexHead]

Again, if a person's hands or wrist can't rack a properly sprung pistol, it's a fools errand to give them a pocket nine to shoot. They'll be unlikely to be able to handle the recoil and ensure it functions properly. It's not the right gun for them.

 

[snooperman]

Hexhead, I could not have said it better. Now Walther should do what Remington did and recall the bad ones and correct the problems. Their reputation is at stake.

 

[snooperman]

Forget about Umarex, Walther's name is all over this pistol. They advertised and marketed it and is selling it under their name. It is their pup now.

 

[Fishbed77]

Forget about Umarex, Walther's name is all over this pistol. They advertised and marketed it and is selling it under their name. It is their pup now.

Nope.

Umarex own Walther. They can slap the Walther name all over their lesser products and the Walther factory in Ulm has no say in the matter. Whether Walther America markets both in the US matters not.

It doesn't change the fact that Umarex makes lower-quality firearms and airsoft toys, while the Walther factory in Ulm makes very high-quality firearms like the P99, PPQ, and PPS.

 

[AustinTX]

Nope.

Umarex own Walther. They can slap the Walther name all over their lesser products and the Walther factory in Ulm has no say in the matter. Whether Walther America markets both in the US matters not.

It doesn't change the fact that Umarex makes lower-quality firearms and airsoft toys, while the Walther factory in Ulm makes very high-quality firearms like the P99, PPQ, and PPS.

Spot-on. I have no idea why some people expend so much energy avoiding these simple facts.

 

[gun_with_a_view]

What previous action by Umarex is the basis for such confidence?

UMAREX could be an exception, but as a rule corporations don't buy out another company with a name and a history like Walther to trash it. But as they say, stuff happens.

 

[Storm]

UMAREX could be an exception, but as a rule corporations don't buy out another company with a name and a history like Walther to trash it. But as they say, stuff happens.

Unfortunately that is exactly what is happening. The problem is that folks don't know the difference, they just see the Walther banner. And then when presented with the facts, that they have been hoodwinked, they go into a defense mode. All UMAREX sees is that one of their guns, the P22, a gun with a history of continuos problems, is their number one seller in the US.

 

[snooperman]

" Walther factory in Ulm has no say in the matter". This is absolutely false. Based on my conversations with Walther and those on the Walther Forum, Walther in Ulm has dominion over a portion of the plant in Arnsberg where the CCP is manufactured . Also their workers and engineers and production managers work in that very plant to oversee the production of this pistol. Your statement and many like it is pure poppycock, which seems to be common by some on the high road , to say the least. I have done the research on the Walther plant in Arnsberg and Walther's involvement in CCP production. Before you "speaketh ", get the facts straight.

 

[HexHead]

Nope.

Umarex own Walther. They can slap the Walther name all over their lesser products and the Walther factory in Ulm has no say in the matter. Whether Walther America markets both in the US matters not.

It doesn't change the fact that Umarex makes lower-quality firearms and airsoft toys, while the Walther factory in Ulm makes very high-quality firearms like the P99, PPQ, and PPS.

And the real problem for Walther is the average Joe doesn't know what he's buying if it says Walther on it anymore.

 

[HexHead]

" Walther factory in Ulm has no say in the matter". This is absolutely false. Based on my conversations with Walther and those on the Walther Forum, Walther in Ulm has dominion over a portion of the plant in Arnsberg where the CCP is manufactured . Also their workers and engineers and production managers work in that very plant to oversee the production of this pistol. Your statement and many like it is pure poppycock, which seems to be common by some on the high road , to say the least. I have done the research on the Walther plant in Arnsberg and Walther's involvement in CCP production. Before you "speaketh ", get the facts straight.

That's a shame then. One would hope Walther wouldn't willingly put their name on a pile of crap like the CCO. The PPQ shows they know what a good trigger is. They must have let the janitor design the one on the CCP. Sad to see a good company go down the tubes.

 

[Storm]

I'd also add that I don't recall an Ulm gun suffering a slide separation. Or having a design that requires a takedown tool. Or having early excessive wear. Or coming from the factory as dirty as a pig. The CCP screams UMAREX.

 

[snooperman]

If you say that the Walther guns made in Ulm are higher quality than those made in Arnsberg, I would buy into that. Walther is trying to do what SIG, Kahr, S&W and others are doing, making pistols that will sell to that segment of the market where the price-point is $350-400. However, they have to get it right. I am a SIG guy and heard the same cry of "foul" when SIG made the P250. But all is not lost as they still make their standard all-metal high quality guns.

 

[Storm]

Hey snooperman. I agree that Walther Ulm is not without some culpability. For them Umarex was arguably a necessary evil. When Walther was acquired in 1993 it is my understanding that they were in deep money trouble and their future existence necessitated the acquisition. While it is conjecture on my part, and based upon Walther's many distinguished years as an arms manufacturer, I tend to view Walther's role here more as an involuntary co-conspirator. With the exceptions of the SP22 and the G22 Umarex pretty much kept their mitts off Walther letting them do their thing. Even in 2003 when the P22 was introduced one could make the argument that it made sense for it to be Umarex/Arnsberg. The problem seems to have arose when they went to "full caliber" centerfire pistols. The PK380 was a mess and had more in common with the P22 than anything made in Ulm. And now the CCP has more in common with the PK380 than anything from Ulm. I've heard about the separate facilities in Arnsberg for the CCP, and even if Carl Walther's ghost floats over the assembly line, this gun is every bit Umarex.

I also understand about the price-point issue, but, as it turns out, Ulm has done just that without sacrificing Walther Ulm quality, in the PPX. Okay, it's not a carry gun, but Ulm has shown that streamlining production can achieve the desired result without sacrificing overall quality. The PPX has been extremely well received.

One way or the other I think that Walther's salvation now lies in how they deal with this mess. Now that there has been an instance of a slide separation it may no longer just be a matter of de-bugging but recalling a gun with a potentially life-threatening defect. Yes, there is only one known instance of this occurrence, but it has to be of very great concern to both Ulm and Arnsberg. How Walther as a brand will handle the issue(s) would be dependent upon who is calling the shots.

As to SIG (and I'm also a SIG guy as well as a Walther guy) I see what you are saying, but at least with the P250 (and SigPro which also caused an uproar) was still SIG who was making the gun without the specter of an Umarex. Heck, the SigPros and the development of the P250 even originated in Germany. But yeah, the SIG purists sure did howl. It's rather interesting seeing the 250 getting more respect now that many are raving about the 320. With SIG it was just about being dragged into the 21st century.

If I was king I would leave the P22 in Arnsberg. I would phase production of the PK380 over to Ulm where remaining ongoing issues could be re-evaluated and quality brought commensurate with an Ulm produced pistol. Production of the CCP would temporarily cease, existing guns would be recalled, and production would be moved to Ulm where the gun would go into a re-design and testing phase. Yeah, that's expensive, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet.

 

[gun_with_a_view]

The name Walther is worth something. A possible solution is for the parent company to sell off Walther to someone who knows how to make a gun. Gaston Glock? Now, that would be a hard swallow.

 

[snooperman]

Storm, I agree " Walther's salvation depends on how they deal with this mess. " Yes, the guns made in Arnsberg are not as well made as those in Ulm,, but they have to work.. My SIG SP2022 was only $400 and the quality is not as good as my P225 and P229, but it works very well.

 

[gun_with_a_view]

Yes, the guns made in Arnsberg are not as well made as those in Ulm,, but they have to work.

Apparently that isn't happening with the CCP. Bummer. It 's such a nice size for OWB when you don't want to carry a canon. Maybe UMAREX will cede the CCP to ULM in order to salvage the reputation of Walther. Either that, or stamp the CCW as made by UMAREX.

 

[Fishbed77]

Your statement and many like it is pure poppycock, which seems to be common by some on the high road , to say the least. I have done the research on the Walther plant in Arnsberg and Walther's involvement in CCP production. Before you "speaketh ", get the facts straight.

Before you accuse someone of being a liar, you had best have you facts straight yourself.

Umarex own Walther.

This is indisputable fact. They acquired Walther in 1993.

They can slap the Walther name all over their lesser products and the Walther factory in Ulm has no say in the matter.

This is also indisputable fact. See above.

Whether Walther America markets both in the US matters not.

Also fact. Walther America markets both Walther- and Umarex-made firearms.

It doesn't change the fact that Umarex makes lower-quality firearms and airsoft toys, while the Walther factory in Ulm makes very high-quality firearms like the P99, PPQ, and PPS.

Also fact. Walther in Ulm only makes high-quality pistols like those listed above. Umarex in Arnsberg has made numerous lower-quality potmetal guns like the P22, new .22LR PPK/S, G22 rifle, and total abortions like the SP22 pistol (whose QA/QC was so bad Umarex killed the product because of the high number of warranty claims).

Since I don't do internet pi@@ing contests, and have no desire to listen to anyone accusing me of being a liar when they have decided to be oblivious to the facts. That's the last I will say about the subject in this thread.

 

[snooperman]

Walther has everything to say about what is produced in the plant in Arnsberg bearing their name. I got this from the Walther USA product manager. You do not have your facts straight. By the way ,for those who like to bash the Arnsberg facility, it is home to the successful Colt 1911 22 pistol and wonderful S&W M&P 22 that is selling so well.

 

[Theohazard]

By the way ,for those who like to bash the Arnsberg facility, it is home to the successful Colt 1911 22 pistol and wonderful S&W M&P 22 that is selling so well.

"Successful" definitely doesn't mean "high quality". As said before, the P22 is very successful and it's also a pretty terrible gun most of the time.

The Colt 1911 pistol is pretty cheap feeling, but that's my only experience with it.But I have more experience with the M&P; I work in a gun shop that carries the full-size M&P .22 pistol, and not only is it cheaply made, but it often has problems. The new M&P .22 Compact has become more popular and has much better range reports. It's also made in the US by S&W, instead of overseas by Umarex like the full-size version.