Walther P99AS and S&W M&P40c Range Reports

[DAdams]

I have a few revolvers and three subcompact (7 round) semi-autos.

Now for a bunch of firsts.

Recently I purchased a Walther P99AS .40, a S&W M&P 40c and a S&W M&P Pro 5 inch in 9mm.

These are my first full sized and compact semi-autos. Today I took the two
.40 calibers on their maiden voyages.

I have five magazines for the Walther and 3 standard and one full sized magazine with X-Grip for the compact, effectively making it a compact with 15 round capacity.

Both were cleaned with Slip 2000 Gun Cleaner and Degreaser (water based, biodegradable and made in the USA) and lubricated with Slip 2000 EWL (Extreme Weapons Lubricant) synthetic. The product came with an EAG AR upper. EAG, Pat Rogers uses it on their School ARs and is the lubricant that was used on the Filthy 14, a BCM shot over 30K rounds without cleaning.
Pat Rogers has a Colt with over 15K rounds rounds through it and purportedly never cleaned.
http://www.slip2000.com/home.html
No affiliation with the Company. Just trying the free samples.

Another new product (to me) I used for the first time now that I have to deal with these relatively high capacity magazines is an UpLULA universal pistol magazine loader. Great product and reduces the wear and tear on your fingers and hands, makes short work of 15 round magazines. Definitely going to get one for the AR.
http://www.maglula.com/
No affiliation with the Company.

Today I am shooting the following (budget) ammunition:
American Eagle 180 FMJ
Remington UMC 180 JHP
Federal 180 HST JHP

Specifications:
Walther
Model: P99AS
Caliber: .40
Barrel Length: 4" / 10.2 cm
Dimensions, L/H/W: 7.1"/5.3"/1.3"
Weight (without Mag): 21.2 oz.
Sights: 3-dot adj.
Magazine Capacity: 12 Rounds
Trigger: TDA
Trigger Weight: 11 lbs./5 lbs. DA/SA

S&W M&P 40c
Caliber .40S&W
Capacity 10 Rounds 10+1 Rounds
Action Striker Fire Action
Trijicon Night Sights
Finish Black Melonite®, 68 HRc
Barrel Length 3.5"
Overall Length 6.7"
Weight 21.9 oz.
Grip 3 Interchangeable Palmswell Grip Sizes

Will also see if the .40 caliber was the right move. Caliber with capacity.
Mid priced ammunition. And we will see just how really "snappy" .40 is.
It has been a couple years since I have been on a snappy XD sub .40.





Off to the range in a few hours, a new one with the latest in range technology features.

 

[Smaug]

I look forward to the report.

To me, "snappy" means a high pressure round. Like 357 Magnum or 9mm.

I'm sure it will feel just as snappy as a 9mm, but with more recoil.

 

[DAdams]

Trips to the range are always interesting and I learn something new each time I go.

This new store (east TN) and range is very nice. I had to go through the perfunctory document signatures (hold harmless etc), and watch a short safety film, which never hurts.

Since the range is new they have an interesting policy of no exposed lead, that means the two JHP rounds I was going to shoot were not permitted and ball was the order of the day. I told the "range officer" I had two new handguns I wanted to get some rounds through and qualify with some PD ammunition after the ball aka JHP. He told me something I never knew....that the ball ammo characteristics I was (going to be) shooting wouldn't vary enough compared to the JHP when it came to making holes in paper. I begged to differ but then I knew this was larger than me having a "lead free" range.

Operationally then I couldn't shoot any thing I had with the exception of the American Eagle (50 rounds). Hence, John the Ranger was happy to sell me ball ammo, which I mistakenly selected the Atlanta Arms & Ammo 180 gr, him not telling me they were reloads. Until I came out and told him that about 2 out of 10 would fail to feed. It was consistant though (the FTF), both guns and equally distributed over all 8 magazines where upon he told me that that was common with the reloads. Guess he didn't hear me when I told him I was qualifying two new handguns.....oh well, as the rounds played out I figured it out (crap ammo), tried the rest of the 25 American Eagles left which ran fine in both guns.
They had other Manufacturer's products and I went cheap, not knowing nor being told the Atlanta's were reloads. My bad for not asking.

The good news was the lighting was great, the place was immaculate. It has a state of the art rail system so no settling down time on the targets. Best of all, I had five lanes to myelf.

Yes, the .40 is "snappy" and both had about the same muzzle flip. The 4 inch Walther and the 3.5 inch M&P were virtually identical in muzzle rise characterstic. I went through about 75 rounds in each and was just starting to get comfortable after about fifty rounds into each. Everything stayed on the paper and 98% were in the COM, it will only get better.

The trigger setup on the AS is well an AS, long DA first anti stress pull, then shorter SA follow-ups. By the time I started attempting to do some double taps, the curse of the reloads started screwing up my rhythm. Next time.

I was very pleased with the M&P, I actually did better with it than the Walther and I guess I was lucky and didn't get a "crunchy" trigger and for PD it should smooth out fine. I don't know for now if I am going to bother with the Apex. I may have to save it for the 9Pro. The M&P with the FS magazine and the X Grip/medium swell was a good fit.

For those shooting M&Ps and maybe this is pertinant to the .40c, even with ear plugs and headset, I could hear a mechanical "clank" when it cycled.
Not so on the Walther.

Well, as they say, a bad day at the range (and this wasn't bad by any stretch).....I'm looking forward to more quality time with both these fine semi-autos, and going back to my dark, funky range where you can shoot lead exposed JHPs and try some 165 grainers and see how those feel compared with the 180s.

Both these are keepers and it only makes sense to have at least two handguns in each caliber. That makes 2 9mm, 2 40s and 2 .380s.

Let's see, I also learned there is a "lock or latch" on an Uplula. Loading 6 magazines and 75 rounds or more by the old hand method wasn't any fun and I couldn't figure out why it was "locked up". :banghead:


Walther


M&P

 

[DAdams]

 

[DAdams]

To me, "snappy" means a high pressure round. Like 357 Magnum or 9mm.

I'm sure it will feel just as snappy as a 9mm, but with more recoil.

I have not shot a full size 9mm so I don't have any plane of reference.

Let's put it this way, after 150 rounds of 180 gr I'm no worse for wear and tear. I was just getting warmed up and settled down. I'll have to take the S&W M&P 9Pro and the Walther .40 for a better side to side comparison.

 

[Water-Man]

Too bad you didn't compare a Walther P99 COMPACT to the S&W M&Pc. That would have been 'apples to apples'.

The .40 S&W M&Pc is more 'snappy' than the 9mm.

 

[DAdams]

Too bad you didn't compare a Walther P99 COMPACT to the S&W M&Pc. That would have been 'apples to apples'.

The .40 S&W M&Pc is more 'snappy' than the 9mm.

Yeah, this wasn't designed to be a comparison, it was two new handguns gone to the range getting some time. I haven't been to a range in 90 days or better and the Walther has been setting NIB for at least that long. Too much work, not enough recreation.

There wasn't marked difference between the two recoil wise. Weights are similar, bore axis isn't that different, only a half inch barrel length difference.

 

[Fishbed77]

The trigger setup on the AS is well an AS, long DA first anti stress pull, then shorter SA follow-ups. By the time I started attempting to do some double taps, the curse of the reloads started screwing up my rhythm. Next time.

Just to clarify, the AS (Anti Stress) trigger on the P99 is a long SA first pull, followed by much shorter SA follow-ups. Unless it's decocked first, in which case it becomes a traditional DA first pull with subsequent SA pulls. I think there's a lot of confusion out there about this trigger, but it's not complicated at all.

DAdams, I don't know how much experience you have with P99s, but the triggers are usually pretty stiff and gritty when new, and will definitely affect your shooting. By the 500 round break-in mark, though, that trigger will be like butter!

You're going to love it.

 

[DAdams]

This is from the Walther P99 Manual
Yes, you do have to decock initially, which is the recommended mode, hence I consider this SOP as in 3.3.4.


Anti-Stress (AS): Traditional Double-Action/Single-Action trigger with Decocker.

3.3.4 Firing the P99 AS
With the striker de-cocked, the first round will be fired in Double Action mode and
subsequent shots will be fired in Single Action mode until you de-cock the P99 AS
again.3.3.4.1 P99 AS, Double Action Trigger• Load the pistol and de-cock it. Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Keep
your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard until you are ready to fire.
CAUTION: The striker will re-cock if the slide is moved to the rear by about
10 mm. The trigger will remain in its forward-most position
(see Anti-Stress-Trigger below).
• While holding the grip firmly, squeeze the trigger fully to the rear to fire.
• Keep your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard until you are ready to
fire again.
The subsequent shots will be fired with traditional Single Action trigger until the
P99 AS pistol is reset to Double Action by pressing the decocker.
3.3.4.2 P99 AS, Single Action Trigger
Traditional Single Action Trigger
After firing the first round all subsequent rounds will be fired with a traditional Single
Action trigger, until the pistol is reset to Double Action by pressing the decocker.
Anti-Stress Trigger
It is called “Anti-Stress” because the trigger pull of the P99 AS is the same length for
the first shot, regardless of whether it is double-action or single-action. The Anti-
Stress trigger functions as a sort of two-stage trigger, and lessens the possibility of a
stress-induced unintentional discharge.
Unlike the operation when shooting - when the trigger does not move all the way
forward between shots - any time the slide is retracted by hand the trigger moves to
its forward-most position. The combination of the trigger in the forward-most position
with the striker cocked is the main feature of the Anti-Stress trigger.
a) Shifting to Anti-Stress trigger mode by manually reloading
The Anti-Stress mode is activated each time the pistol is reloaded manually while the
finger is off the trigger.
b) Shifting to Anti-Stress trigger mode by manually cocking
The Anti-Stress mode is also activated each time the pistol is cocked manually while
the finger is off the trigger:
Hold the de-cocked pistol with your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger
guard, point the muzzle in a safe direction. Pull back the slide by about 10 mm and
then move it back to its forward position. This puts the pistol in Anti-Stress mode
(trigger in the forward-most position and the striker cocked).
If the slide gets pulled to the rear more than 20 mm, a cartridge in the chamber
is ejected.
To fire a shot after such manual cocking, squeeze the trigger. When the trigger is
released, subsequent rounds will be fired using the traditional Single Action trigger
with a shorter trigger pull, until the P99 AS pistol gets reset to Double Action by
pressing the decocker.
ENGLISH
13
3.4

 

[Water-Man]

Of course, you can just go with the P99 QA.

 

[Fishbed77]

This is from the Walther P99 Manual
Yes, you do have to decock initially, which is the recommended mode, hence I consider this SOP as in 3.3.4.

Anti-Stress (AS): Traditional Double-Action/Single-Action trigger with Decocker.

3.3.4 Firing the P99 AS
With the striker de-cocked, the first round will be fired in Double Action mode and
subsequent shots will be fired in Single Action mode until you de-cock the P99 AS
again.3.3.4.1 P99 AS, Double Action Trigger• Load the pistol and de-cock it. Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Keep
your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard until you are ready to fire.
CAUTION: The striker will re-cock if the slide is moved to the rear by about
10 mm. The trigger will remain in its forward-most position
(see Anti-Stress-Trigger below).
• While holding the grip firmly, squeeze the trigger fully to the rear to fire.
• Keep your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard until you are ready to
fire again.
The subsequent shots will be fired with traditional Single Action trigger until the
P99 AS pistol is reset to Double Action by pressing the decocker.
3.3.4.2 P99 AS, Single Action Trigger
Traditional Single Action Trigger
After firing the first round all subsequent rounds will be fired with a traditional Single
Action trigger, until the pistol is reset to Double Action by pressing the decocker.
Anti-Stress Trigger
It is called “Anti-Stress” because the trigger pull of the P99 AS is the same length for
the first shot, regardless of whether it is double-action or single-action. The Anti-
Stress trigger functions as a sort of two-stage trigger, and lessens the possibility of a
stress-induced unintentional discharge.
Unlike the operation when shooting - when the trigger does not move all the way
forward between shots - any time the slide is retracted by hand the trigger moves to
its forward-most position. The combination of the trigger in the forward-most position
with the striker cocked is the main feature of the Anti-Stress trigger.
a) Shifting to Anti-Stress trigger mode by manually reloading
The Anti-Stress mode is activated each time the pistol is reloaded manually while the
finger is off the trigger.
b) Shifting to Anti-Stress trigger mode by manually cocking
The Anti-Stress mode is also activated each time the pistol is cocked manually while
the finger is off the trigger:
Hold the de-cocked pistol with your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger
guard, point the muzzle in a safe direction. Pull back the slide by about 10 mm and
then move it back to its forward position. This puts the pistol in Anti-Stress mode
(trigger in the forward-most position and the striker cocked).
If the slide gets pulled to the rear more than 20 mm, a cartridge in the chamber
is ejected.
To fire a shot after such manual cocking, squeeze the trigger. When the trigger is
released, subsequent rounds will be fired using the traditional Single Action trigger
with a shorter trigger pull, until the P99 AS pistol gets reset to Double Action by
pressing the decocker.
ENGLISH
13
3.4

I'm quite aware of all of that!

I own one myself (9mm AS), and yes, you should de-cock the pistol when carrying with one in the chamber - that's the P99's mode of safe carry.

Don't want to get into a fight over semantics, but there's no rule that you must decock the pistol when firing in a controlled environment, though (unless you just want to train consistently, and that I understand). What you have quoted in bold "Load the pistol and de-cock it" directly follows the "3.3.4.1 P99 AS, Double Action Trigger" heading. They are telling you how to put the weapon into DA mode. Indeed, Walther has provided the ability to "re-cock" the weapon into single-action mode by pulling the slide back about 1 cm, and even allows you to bypass the Anti-Stress mode straight into a short pull with the P99's unique set trigger. That's why the AS mode exists at all - when the gun is drawn (say, in an offensive situation or after a reload), there is that extra margin of safety to prevent an accidental discharge with the P99s very smooth and relatively light single-action trigger.

What makes an AS an AS is what you quoted from the manual:

"It is called “Anti-Stress” because the trigger pull of the P99 AS is the same length for the first shot, regardless of whether it is double-action or single-action." In reality, the AS mode only kicks in on the first SA shot - otherwise, the operation is just like any other DA/SA pistol.

That's another reason why I love the pistol. It's so versatile. You're gonna love it too.

 

[BleysAhrens]

Uh, the P99 .40 holds 12 rounds per mag..

 

[DAdams]

the P99 .40 holds 12 rounds per mag..

Right you are and the specs were stripped out out of Walther America's Website.

Good Eye.