Want a carbine/defense rifle

[RevolvingGarbage]

I have decided that my next big firearm purchase is going to be a defensive rifle/carbine. My biggest constraint is my budget, with the maximum I'm going to be able to spend on the rifle alone is about $600.

What I need is something center-fire, in a common caliber, that takes commonly available magazines (I hate saying high capacity magazines, so what I mean is thirty-rounders or better), and can hold minute of paper plate at 200 yards.

My ideal choice would be a Ruger Mini-14 in stainless, with a butler creek stock set and a winged post front sight. I am having a lot of trouble finding that set up within my budget range, and so I have begun looking into building an AR in 5.56 using a polymer lower.

Another option I am very interested in is the KelTec SU-16. It seems to offer everything I need and the price falls within my budget.

Basically what I want to know from the folks here in the rifle forum is which of these options would you choose, given the same requirements and budget constraints?

 

[allaroundhunter]

Look into a PSA (Palmetto State Armory) AR. Start at $599. Add a flip up rear sight and you are good to go (Magpul makes a good, fairly inexpensive one for about $55).

Here is a link.

I like the AR because it is easy to add what I would like to it. For HD, that means iron sights and a flashlight. It isn't nearly as easy to mount a flashlight to a mini 14 (which would be my second choice)

 

[LoonWulf]

Ive seen used minis for 300-400, add a decent stock, and optics and youll be in the price range your looking at. Ive only SEEN a su-16, but that does seem like a good gun for what you want, and may well be the best choice. I had to chose between that and my Mini, i ended up with the mini as it was only about 120 more expensive.

Other guys will im sure chime in on the Ar front, so ill leave that to them.

 

[mljdeckard]

Think around the lines allaroundhunter is suggesting. There are very economical AR options. Or look in the pawn shops, there are all kinds of used ones out there. Another option which costs more than they used to but still well within your budget, would be a Yugo SKS with a few mods. (Tapco stock and compliance kit, Tech-Sights, Kivarri trigger.) That would also be well within your budget.

 

[Girodin]

I'd look at either a PSA AR or a self converted Saiga.

Add a flip up rear sight and you are good to go (Magpul makes a good, fairly inexpensive one for about $55).

If you are not going to run an optic then just get a fixed sight as it is cheaper and more rugged than the MBUS.


Things I would keep in mind is that the most important thing for a defensive gun is reliability. I think the PSA, the Mini, or the Saiga would be good to go in that department. My preference for a fighting gun would likely be PSA AR, Saiga, mini. Kel tecs are great recreational guns IMHO (and yes I own some).

 

[allaroundhunter]

If you are not going to run an optic then just get a fixed sight as it is cheaper and more rugged than the MBUS

I do agree with this. The only reason I said flip-up sight is because that is what I run on my AR (that also wears an optic) and wasn't really thinking when I was typing . For a purely HD rifle, and trying to keep costs down, a fixed rear sight will work great as well.

 

[Jericho_223]

I'd go ahead and recommend the Saiga. I was in the OP's shoes a few months ago, with a similar budget, and after doing a lot of reading, went with the Saiga in .223 and I love it! It'll definitely do MOPP, there are plenty of aftermarket mags for them, and they're very inexpensive at ~$350 new. Granted, I haven't put thousands of rounds or handfuls of mud through it to test out the legendary reliability of the AK platform, but so far, my rifle has caused me no trouble at all.

 

[kfgk14]

PSA AR-15 as linked above, add a front-sight mounted Surefire light and paint the front sight post with white-out.
Feed it with good magazines and ammo. Buy a Blue Force Gear ten speed bandoleer to carry magazines, it's fast on/off. Only really need maybe one spare magazine, but I'd put a thirty rounder in the rifle and two more in the bandoleer. Build a compact bleedout/trauma kit to tuck into two of the remaining mag pouches (trauma kit in one, tourniquet in the other) and then add your cell phone and two pistol magazines (if you have a pistol) in the two remaining pouches. If no pistol is available, put another AR magazine in the last pouch.

I'd advise against the Kel-Tec, and I'd advise against the Mini 14. Both are longer than a standard AR, and have a less proven history (especially on the Kel-Tec side). Neither is fielded by any (major) military, for good reason. They are harder to accessorize, mount optics and maintain, and in the case of the Mini-14, the magazines are expensive and the aftermarket ones are largely total crap. Also, the Mini-14 is very heavy compared to a 16" barreled AR-15.
An AK-47 is a decent cheaper option (WASR-10 or an Arsenal variant), but heavy. The same goes for an SKS (the SKS is also rather unwieldy inside a house/apartment).

And @ Girodin, I don't know of any (decent) fixed rear sight that's made to proper spec that is cheaper than the MBUS. An LMT is about $119, and the carry handles are generally about that expensive, too. There is some cheap, chi-com stuff out there, but I'd veer away, IMHO.

About the used guns, some will be abused, it will be impossible to tell what parts many of them are made of, and it's not too easy to tell how many rounds have been fired through them. It's so economical at this point to buy new, that just getting a new Palmetto State Armory gun is a far better option (known quantity built to mil-spec, and you can send it to someone if it fails on you [though self-repair of an AR is generally pretty easy if the failure isn't catastrophic in some way]).

 

[MikePaiN]

Another option I am very interested in is the KelTec SU-16. It seems to offer everything I need and the price falls within my budget.

I feel this is great way for you to go, especially if you can get a "C" model.
I had an SU-16A and based on your needs and budget, seems like a perfect fit. The SUs are extremely versatile and capable carbines.

Lets see if I can dig up an old pic

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

On the PSA AR, it looks like a great deal, but the price after shipping and FFL is still a little high for me, and until I get a rear for it, its not really a complete rifle as far as I am concerned.

Saiga's are something I might be interested in, but only in 7.62x39mm or 7.62x51mm, and then I have the AK iron sights to deal with (I much prefer peep sights).

Are the stock sights on the SU-16 worth a hoot? How hard is the conversion from the original stock to a 6 position?

 

[dagger dog]

You can pick up a new MINI at Wally World for that price,have them order it for you.

 

[BSA1]

You might consider the route I am taking. I purchased a Saiga 223 Sporter for a little over $300.00 (I have a good dealer). I plan on upgrading it with a conversion kit. A few hi-cap mags and I am under $600.00.

 

[Jericho_223]

That's exactly what I plan on as well! Just waiting to have enough liquid cash to pick up all the stuff I need for the conversion! Really excited about it!

 

[Girodin]

I have a .223 and I'm sure it will do the job but the 7.62 x 39 will do it better IMO and so will the 5.45.

I'd look more to the loads in question when comparing 5.56 and 5.45.

Are the stock sights on the SU-16 worth a hoot?

There are different sights on different models. The sights like the one pictured are not great and not particularly robust or durable. I don't have experience with the front sight that is back on the gas block so I won't comment.

And @ Girodin, I don't know of any (decent) fixed rear sight that's made to proper spec that is cheaper than the MBUS. An LMT is about $119, and the carry handles are generally about that expensive, too. There is some cheap, chi-com stuff out there, but I'd veer away, IMHO.

A Daniel Defense one can be had for about the same price as a gen 2 MBUS rear, a Yankee Hill Machine is like $35. Shop used parts and you can do even better. I love magpul stuff generally, and own a bunch of it, but the MBUS are not hard use sights and I would have more faith in a cheaper sight than in the MBUS. Yes, for my go to gun I have a troy sight, but there are cheaper serviceable options.

 

[Dr_2_B]

Because of the current market conditions, it is hard to look past one of the Saigas. They are the best deal available now IMO. They will eventually go up. If I were in your shoes, that is what I would do.

 

[Art Eatman]

Most any semi-auto in .223 or 7.62x39 will do. Short and handy is best. Since "defense" means fairly close range, odds are that regular iron sights will work as good as any other.

I figure that hock shops have about half the asking price in their used rifles, so I'd bargain from there.

After that it's trigger time for skill and familiarization--and, more importantly, probable tactics for various scenarios of possible need.

 

[Tirod]

Because of market conditions and the overwhelming support of the industry, it's hard to overlook the AR15.

S&W for $599, and many others, too. If the carbine is truly for defensive purposes and 30 round magazines necessary, then choose the one with a last shot bolt hold open, index finger mag release, and off hand bolt release you push after inserting the mag.

Or, get one that forces the shooter to do everything backwards and slower. It's a demonstrated fact, the Mini/Saiga/SU control layout isn't even considered ergonomic by professionals. Once the mag is out, the off hand can insert it, but you have to roll the receiver over to charge it from the closed bolt, or remove the trigger hand to do it.

Fast reloads are essential to a defensive carbine, in the open competition of three gun shooting where you can bring ANY rifle, even a lever action, the AR15 is considered best. Others may show up once or twice with a Saiga, or AUG, they ditch them when the times are compared in a match. The AR15 helps the shooter reload, all the while keeping the sights on the target. The others do not, and that's a FAIL for self defense purposes.

It's not dissing them, just fact, and it's also highly significant that some offer conversions to rearrangie the controls to help the shooter, not impede him. That's why you see thumb safeties on the left side, and bolt handles, too. Those conversions exist for a reason - they're superior. You get that standard on the AR.

If the Mini/Saiga/SU was all that, it would be the #1 gun in competitive tactical shooting. It's not. For defensive purposes, the AR is superior.

 

[LoonWulf]

Tirod, i dont really see an advantage to reload speed in a defensive weapon, but again im not in the habit of getting in gun fights. If i havent gotten my point across in 30rnds, I dont think im going to lol. Question, how do you change a mag on an ar with your finger on the trigger? Again, im not an AR guy, but ive handled and shoot quite a few and i always use my index finger to drop the mag.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Tirod, i dont really see an advantage to reload speed in a defensive weapon, but again im not in the habit of getting in gun fights. If i havent gotten my point across in 30rnds, I dont think im going to lol. Question, how do you change a mag on an ar with your finger on the trigger? Again, im not an AR guy, but ive handled and shoot quite a few and i always use my index finger to drop the mag.

I don't plan to have to reload during a self defense shoot, but I want to be able to quickly if I have to. And he said that his index finger stays indexed to release the mag, not on the trigger.

But it takes less than half a second to go from indexed and ejecting a mag to back on the trigger. And the index finger is the only thing on the firing hand that moves during a reload.

 

[rondog]

My personal favorite....

 

[Bastiat's The Law]

The Kel-Tec is awesome, if yours happens to be reliable. Not all of them are.

 

[Girodin]

but you have to roll the receiver over to charge it from the closed bolt, or remove the trigger hand to do it.

Or reach under, that's what I do.


I agree the AR is faster to reload. I'd put it in the mostly theoretical advantage category when it comes to HD though. 30 rounds is a lot to expend in HD. I agree with the sentiment that it is nice to have even if it probably wont be used. However, I would rank other considerations much much higher. There is an argument terminal ballistics would be much more important. Absolute reliability and durability is another one that is IMHO much more important. Properly built ARs are very reliable and durable. I don't know if a S&W is properly built, the factory doesn't release info on if they do things to spec or not claiming it is proprietary info. A HD AR should be easy to keep clean and most importantly for ARs lubed so it really shouldn't be an issue for a good one. However, I would buy a gun I knew was properly built if it is meant to be a fighting gun. Right now for budget guns that makes the PSA the most attractive IMHO. It is the only gun in that price range I would consider as a defensive weapon.

My my go to is an AR. However, I would go for one of my AKs before I went to a questionable AR. I have long said I rank guns as follows Quality AR > quality AK (like a saiga) > lower end AR.

 

[MrWesson]

Minute of paper plate accuracy of 200yds is a bit much for a iron sighted anything.

My vote would be
an entry level AR from Delton or PSA
A Saiga rifle with a bullet guide(I wouldn't do a full conversion) 5.45x39 is a cool caliber
SKS or AK



Rethinking the minute of paper plate opens up your options to a pistol caliber carbine like a Keltec sub2k which is my protect the fort rifle but I am in a urban environment.

 

[kayak-man]

I'd recommend a Saiga. I have the one in 7.62x39, and I love it. The iron sights that it came with are, in my opinion, pretty good. I can hit clay pigeons at approximately 120yards without too much trouble. (there's some trial and error involved in shot placement, but I blame that on operator error, and that being the first time shooting the rifle at more than 50 yards)

The conversion isn't that hard, and for what its worth, I like the original Saiga handguard better than the classic AK or Galil style, since it extends farther forward, giving you more options of where to put your hand. (Although, I find myself just using the magazine like a vertical forend grip anyways...)


Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[jpwilly]

I think any of the options you listed would work for said purpose. I'm an AR-15 fan boy personally. The Ruger is just too expensive for what you get IMO and with the Ruger and Kel Tech a much more limited upgrade market.

Really any repeating rifle would be good for defense if it's reliable and you know how to use it. I'm assuming your talking about self defence and not fighting off waves of BG's.