Want a carbine/defense rifle
- Thread starter RevolvingGarbage
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A saiga without the full conversion has a bunch of problems going on if you plan to use it as a defensive gun.
First, I why a bullet guide if not to run standard capacity mags. If you don't lose some more foreign countable parts then you have a 922r issue. If one wants to be able to use more than ten rounders you need to change parts. If one wants to be able to use the best mags available (which on a self defense gun is a huge issue ) then one needs to change even more parts. On a x39 one might use US palms and be ok but on any of the others foreign mags are definitely my first choice.
2nd: the balance of the gun with sporter stock is just horrible.
3rd: the egos suck even worse when the gun is in sporter configuration
Items two and three make it hard to manipulate the gun in ways one does for dynamic shooting. Reloads, immediate action drills, engaging the safety, and even just holding the gun with one hand while you pick up a child or call 911 are all notably more difficult with the gun in sporter configuration.
4th: The trigger is vastly improved. Sure you could make do with the factory arrangement but a better trigger is always preferable to me.
5th: over all length. I am an advocate of holing up and calling 911 in most instances but should one need to move with a gun the shorter OAL better facilitates that.
He's saying you can change the magazine without breaking cheek weld. Yeah, you probably don't need 30 rounds in a defensive confrontation. But, stress will make them more likely to pull through getting shot, and stress (as well as getting shot back at) will make you less accurate.
You never have too much ammo, remember that.
mokin
Member
Lots of interesting points and discussion going on here. Back in the early 90s when I felt the need for a carbine, I went out and bought a Norinco Type 56 and a whole bunch of ammunition to practice with. Given your logistical stipulations I would go with the SU-16. It seems to meet the budget constraints, acepts STANAG magazines and uses a commen cartridge. That being said, I agree with what Tirod said about the AR-15 type rifles. If you shop around, you can probably put one together, even with a metal lower receiver, within your budget.
Armchair Bronco
Member
My personal favorite....
Nice! I approve.
Www.hoffgun.com go to sales and specials. Smith ar for 599. I have the saga and it's good but the ar is more fun.
Cob
Member
Semi-auto 12 gauge with rifled barrel... when you look the rifled slugs, they are paper of plate at 200 yards, and at close range, you can shoot about 800 grains of buckshot fully loaded, and really do some damage...
Lonerider357
Member
Love M1 Carbines!!
It's your life you're talking about. It's not a game. So buy a brand new domestic carbine of good repute in a common domestic caliber with a good set of sights already on the gun, widespread domestic parts availability, especially magazines, tech support, and ammunition availability. Never bet your life on a used rifle you don't know anything about or a barely-known foreign rifle nobody in blazes knows how to work on.
My reason for waving you away from used auto rifles is the frequency with which I see auto rifles being badly abused on the range, and then maintained badly. Such abuse can be cleaned up well enough that you won't be aware of it until the gun fails at the wrong moment. If you know the previous owner and can trust that he respected the gun, then I'll give a little bit on the used gun thing. But outside of that, stick with a new gun and break it in yourself.
It doesn't matter if you like the gun or not, nor does it matter if it is tacticool on the gun forums or not. It doesn't matter if the stock is wood, fiberglass, or plastic, or what camo pattern it may have. All that matters is that it is utterly reliable and that you can use it capably. It all boils down to those two things.
My reason for waving you away from used auto rifles is the frequency with which I see auto rifles being badly abused on the range, and then maintained badly. Such abuse can be cleaned up well enough that you won't be aware of it until the gun fails at the wrong moment. If you know the previous owner and can trust that he respected the gun, then I'll give a little bit on the used gun thing. But outside of that, stick with a new gun and break it in yourself.
It doesn't matter if you like the gun or not, nor does it matter if it is tacticool on the gun forums or not. It doesn't matter if the stock is wood, fiberglass, or plastic, or what camo pattern it may have. All that matters is that it is utterly reliable and that you can use it capably. It all boils down to those two things.
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mdauben
Member
There are a couple of other ready-made options, but I don't think you can go wrong with a new, S&W M&P 15 Sport. You can routinely find them for just under $600. It will meet all your stated requirements and I have zero complaints about my own.
I've never owned or shot a Mini-14, but I have heard a lot of people with the opinion that its not really a suitable SD rifle due to accuracy and/or reliability. Don't take my word for it, though, I'd ask around some people who actually own one.
A lot of people like the SU-16 and it has some good features, but I think if I had $600 to spend, I'd rather have a honest to goodness AR platform.
Zerodefect
member
Stag model 2H $505
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_22/6..._UPPER_HALFS__Pre_and_Post_Ban_FROM__445.html
Aero Precision complete lower $200
http://newfrontierarmory.com/catalo...oduct_info&cPath=91_1_134_168&products_id=589
Getting close to the price of a Colt 6920! I recommend sticking with your pistol or whatever and saving up a bit more.
I don't like the S&W sport because it has no shell deflector or port cover. Two things I absolutely must have on a defensive rifle (especially the shell deflector).
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_22/6..._UPPER_HALFS__Pre_and_Post_Ban_FROM__445.html
Aero Precision complete lower $200
http://newfrontierarmory.com/catalo...oduct_info&cPath=91_1_134_168&products_id=589
Getting close to the price of a Colt 6920! I recommend sticking with your pistol or whatever and saving up a bit more.
I don't like the S&W sport because it has no shell deflector or port cover. Two things I absolutely must have on a defensive rifle (especially the shell deflector).
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No, I wasn't referring to the Saiga specifically. But even if I was, I live in a part of the country where a repair would mean shipping the gun somewhere to have it repaired.
My conservatism on this issue is due to the fact that the OP intends to bank his life on the rifle he buys, not just to shoot it recreationally. When my former employer bought auto rifles for a few thousand LEO's to bank their lives on, they bought Colt AR's, not SKS's or used AK's. In all honesty to the OP, I feel obligated to apply the same standard to his life that I expected my employer to apply to mine. So I apologize if I seem too one-way on this, but life is just too precious to take chances with. No offense to anyone who disagrees.
JayPee
My conservatism on this issue is due to the fact that the OP intends to bank his life on the rifle he buys, not just to shoot it recreationally. When my former employer bought auto rifles for a few thousand LEO's to bank their lives on, they bought Colt AR's, not SKS's or used AK's. In all honesty to the OP, I feel obligated to apply the same standard to his life that I expected my employer to apply to mine. So I apologize if I seem too one-way on this, but life is just too precious to take chances with. No offense to anyone who disagrees.
JayPee
mortablunt
Member
For your limited budget, I'd take a serious look at Hi-point carbines. I'd stay away from 223 caliber for defensive purposes unless you're using a JHP design of some sort. M1 carbine isn't a bad option, nor is an SKS (I can hear the angry rebuttal coming already). One of the most important things that the platform you choose must be one you are comfortable with and have the utmost faith in.
I made a thread similar to this one a few months back. It's a bit embarrassing, but it has some good info
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=618715
I made a thread similar to this one a few months back. It's a bit embarrassing, but it has some good info
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=618715
People in caves in Afghanistan can work on these guns and no one where you live can? Interesting. Short of changing a barrel what could you not do yourself? What is it really going to ever need?
If your employer was a govt. agencies I am guessing the had pretty different criteria than an individual home owner. Further the way one would use a gun in your former line of work is also likely to be different than one would in HD. I have no qualms with saying one out to define the task at hand and not settle for a weapon that is not up to it. I do think that is is poor logic to say that because someone somewhere with a whole different set of criteria chose a particular weapon for a whole different task that means it ought to be the choice for the OP.
BTW why was your life only worth a Colt and not say a Noveske?
I highly doubt you ever heard anyone saying it was because of the mini's reliability. It is a a very reliable weapon. I am sure you can stick promags in it and have malfunctions but the same is true for just about every weapon.
You likely have heard complaints about the mini's accuracy but they are not really aplicable to HD. My house is decent sized but I don't have any 300 yard shots. The accuracy of the mini is simply a non factor in this role.
I think there are good reasons to pass on the mini and I would rather have either an AK or a properly built AR. However, it is not because of reliability issues and even accuracy is something a good ways down the list for a HD carbine.
Batty67
Member
M1 carbines are nice, hit hard, and good capacity. My AO is a bit finicky on ammunition and has more FTFs than I'd like, but acceptable. Cons, ammuniton is pricey, but reasonable bulk ammunition can be found if you are patient, but it will never be cheap.
Need to shoot my new to me Ruger police carbine 40 S&W (Pc4).
Need to shoot my new to me Ruger police carbine 40 S&W (Pc4).
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amd6547
Member
I have used most of the carbines mentioned in this thread, and I am a believer in the carbine for an HD weapon.
My favorite for a long time was the M1 carbine. I have an Inland from the CMP which has been reliable and accurate.
Lately, I have been shooting a 5.45 Saiga. For the money, I don't think the Saiga can be beat. I have put 600 rounds through it without a single issue. I find I like the 5.45 round a lot. Surplus ammo is very cheap...I buy a case whenever I can, so I am not worried about finding more ammo...I will always keep a few sealed spam cans in reserve. Hornady Vmax 5.45 sells for about $20 for 50 rounds, and it is my chosen HD ammo. The surplus ammo is a good performing round with a steel core and a hollow tip which is known for turning sideways on impact.
I have not converted my Saiga. In fact, I like the standard configuration. The standard sporting stock points very well for me. The trigger is not as bad as many make it out to be. I have made a point of keeping the trigger linkage lubricated, and after 600 rounds down range, it is very similar to the standard AK triggers I am well familiar with.
After my second range trip with the Saiga, I put my M1 carbine away. The Saiga is my go to now.
My favorite for a long time was the M1 carbine. I have an Inland from the CMP which has been reliable and accurate.
Lately, I have been shooting a 5.45 Saiga. For the money, I don't think the Saiga can be beat. I have put 600 rounds through it without a single issue. I find I like the 5.45 round a lot. Surplus ammo is very cheap...I buy a case whenever I can, so I am not worried about finding more ammo...I will always keep a few sealed spam cans in reserve. Hornady Vmax 5.45 sells for about $20 for 50 rounds, and it is my chosen HD ammo. The surplus ammo is a good performing round with a steel core and a hollow tip which is known for turning sideways on impact.
I have not converted my Saiga. In fact, I like the standard configuration. The standard sporting stock points very well for me. The trigger is not as bad as many make it out to be. I have made a point of keeping the trigger linkage lubricated, and after 600 rounds down range, it is very similar to the standard AK triggers I am well familiar with.
After my second range trip with the Saiga, I put my M1 carbine away. The Saiga is my go to now.
I have to disagree. I own or have owned a double digit number or saigas. The stock trigger is exactly what people make it out to be (and even worse on the 308 models). The difference between it and one of the aftermarket AK triggers is truly night and day. The gun will still go bang with the gerry rigged wishbone linkage, and you can still make hits, but it is vastly inferior. I've never had someone pull the triggers side by side on both a non converted gun and a convert and not remark about the difference.
ApacheCoTodd
member
If it really is defensive and not for range/forum style points, as noted before, I would steer clear of most rifle calibers with their potential liabilities and lean towards a pistol cal carbine and with that in mind I'd start with a camp carbine type rifle along the lines of the Marlin.
Doesn't do you much good to say you were just defending yourself when one of the injured parties is a neighbors kid or someone a half mile away.
Doesn't do you much good to say you were just defending yourself when one of the injured parties is a neighbors kid or someone a half mile away.
amd6547
Member
My two AK's are both eqiupped with G2 FCG's, both with a minimal amount of polishing on contact surfaces. They are both good triggers. I am well familiar with the G2 trigger pull, and the G2 is the most common Saiga conversion choice.
The Saiga trigger was somewhat stiffer out of the box. I cleaned it thoroughly and applied WeaponShield CLP to all the contact surfaces of the trigger linkage. It improved immediately, and continued to improve the more I shot it, with periodic reapplication of lube after each range trip. It is now very close to a G2 FCG in feel.
Many, if not most, Saiga owners buy it with the intention of converting it. I have read many threads of owners doing the conversion before ever even shooting the rifle.
I "may" convert mine someday. It is pretty far down the list of firearm projects for me. But for those who are considering a Saiga, don't be convinced that it is worthless in stock form, that the trigger is someway unusable. It is very much a viable carbine which can be purchased and used satisfactorily while you accumulate parts for a conversion...or not. I decided to spend my money on an extra case of 5.45.
The Saiga trigger was somewhat stiffer out of the box. I cleaned it thoroughly and applied WeaponShield CLP to all the contact surfaces of the trigger linkage. It improved immediately, and continued to improve the more I shot it, with periodic reapplication of lube after each range trip. It is now very close to a G2 FCG in feel.
Many, if not most, Saiga owners buy it with the intention of converting it. I have read many threads of owners doing the conversion before ever even shooting the rifle.
I "may" convert mine someday. It is pretty far down the list of firearm projects for me. But for those who are considering a Saiga, don't be convinced that it is worthless in stock form, that the trigger is someway unusable. It is very much a viable carbine which can be purchased and used satisfactorily while you accumulate parts for a conversion...or not. I decided to spend my money on an extra case of 5.45.
allaroundhunter
Member
ApacheCoTodd, as has been discussed on this forum multiple times, a good HP in 5.56 will over penetrate less than a JHP pistol round. That kinda puts the "liabilities" more in perspective.
I have grown sooooooo weary of hearing this trite, inaccurate comment. The fact is that a 5.56 rifle or 7.62x39 with proper bullet selection is much less of a liability and risk to over penetrate a bad guy or to penetrate barriers within a home than a pistol caliber bullet.
Is this not conjecture or opinion. It is something that has been demonstrated again and again. A rifle round like a 5.56 75 grain Hornady TAP offers much better terminal ballistics than a JHP pistol round (even out of a carbine) and also has less penetration risks. The only pistol rounds that will perform better in terms of not penetrating barriers have serious issues in terms of terminal ballistics.
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