"War on drugs" poster, edited 1/9

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As someone who has had family who have worked for the DEA I can't say that I am to thrilled about the poster.

It kind of reminds me of the saying that a person is intelligent but people are stupid. A government agency is power hungry and tramples on rights, but the particular agent is just a guy with a family who probably doesn't have a dog in the fight either way.

I'm for the second amendment as much as the next guy, but its really easy to forget that their are wives and children at home waiting for those "jack booted thugs" that some of you are so ready to shoot at.

We always say that a gun is just a thing. I really don't think that any particular thing is worth killing an otherwise worthwhile person over. I can always by another pistol, but I cant give a family back their husband and their father.
 
STAGE 2 said:
As someone who has had family who have worked for the DEA I can't say that I am to thrilled about the poster.

It kind of reminds me of the saying that a person is intelligent but people are stupid. A government agency is power hungry and tramples on rights, but the particular agent is just a guy with a family who probably doesn't have a dog in the fight either way.

I'm for the second amendment as much as the next guy, but its really easy to forget that their are wives and children at home waiting for those "jack booted thugs" that some of you are so ready to shoot at.

We always say that a gun is just a thing. I really don't think that any particular thing is worth killing an otherwise worthwhile person over. I can always by another pistol, but I cant give a family back their husband and their father.
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And I'm all for enforcing laws. BUT I really don't think that any particular drug evidence is worth killing any person over. Law Enforcement can always find another opportunity to catch a suspected criminal in possession of drug evidence, but it can't give an innocent family incorrectly no-knock raided with tragic result back their husband and their father.

Even the suspect has not been convicted of the charge the evidence is being sought for. They are therefore as innocent in the eyes of the law as the officers executing the warrant. No evidence is worth an innocent death on either side. (however certainly scummy on the one)
 
Oleg, I really like your skills and concepts. I also must agree that this poster is maybe a little controversial and probably points towards more of a WOD issue than it belies.

That said, as a fellow who is currently active LE in the Los Angeles area and also on SWAT I can tell you with all honesty that I have not known of or seen a No-Knock warrant in 15 years. Not with our agency, albeit a small one, or any other. Of course I am talking local police, it would seem that maybe the feds apply for this more often?

Our teams thinking is this..if the amount of drugs the BG has can be flushed in the 30 seconds or so it takes us to comply with knock/notice then it really ain't that big a case is it? If it is a sizable quantity of drugs, well, he won't be able to get rid of them anyway.

The only time we could imagine, ever, just going in, no notice, etc. is obviously hostage type stuff and/or obvious intel (using our own ears) that someone inside is in danger based on screams or what have you or making it obvious that we were observed approaching, e.g. "COPS! RUN! Get my gun, etc." Those seem pretty far fetched though.

(i like you photo work as well, I do a little dabbling with my Nikon D2H on occasion)
 
Eisande,

And that's exactly the thing a SWAT entry should be for and why I'm glad we do train guys to that standard. If you have to go in, I want you to win and go home safe.

Thank you for your service.
 
slide said:
I think most of the scenarios people gen up for self defense is silly. The idea that burglars will put on Halloween costumes and then break down a door is as silly as needing a 14 shot semi-auto handgun in a street confrontation.
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Actually this kind of thing is not that uncommon. Dark clothing and hoods are not expensive, hard to find .. or an uncommon sight on the street.

And everyone knows - even the "dumbest" thugs - that the rabbit people throw themselves prostrate on the floor when the masked men burst in ... shouting the magic words.
-------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
Zundfolge said:
I agree 100%. We must be realistic
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Not realistic, perhaps more assumption.

Realistic may pertain to the average.

But there are hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of ex-cops, military veterans, and other professionals - many of who happen to be women these days. The mechanics involved, from psychology, skills to gear (in one form or another) is not especially sophisticated, and man nor woman need have been on a payroll to learn and know what can be done. Making home an extremely difficult, very unpleasant and deadly target for anyone.

The poster may not have been an accurate literal representation, but symbolically yes. And I think that was the original point.
------------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
I'm sorry - but I don't think this poster aids in the RKBA issue.

The issue is more a civil liberties issue and one of correct police procedure than a fantasy of resisting a mistaken raid.
 
LAK said:
Actually this kind of thing is not that uncommon. Dark clothing and hoods are not expensive, hard to find .. or an uncommon sight on the street.

And everyone knows - even the "dumbest" thugs - that the rabbit people throw themselves prostrate on the floor when the masked men burst in ... shouting the magic words.
-------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
Click to expand...

That's not my experience except for one weird incident where a guy and a bunch of cronies dressed up like Ninjas to kill everybody save one at a dinner party. The one to be saved was the hostess. The chief perp figured that he'd have a chance at her if her hubby was dead. He was a lovestruck computer programmer. The plan failed.

We do have a duty to know what we're shooting at including who is there. I don't see a bunch of guys breaking in a door and yelling "police" being mistaken for regular criminals. Now you may say that criminals can do this too, but I don't think they have the organization to pull it off. Also, if we have an incident or two of ACTUAL behavior, I'd retract my skepticism.
 
The original (and I just re-read it) seems to violate the four rules, ie know your target and what's behind it.

She had BETTER take those extra seconds.

Something to think about.

Granted at 3am someone kicking my door in would be assumed to be hostile, as would most people. Your point seems to be at 3am she MIGHT NOT know the difference--but that's a different statement altogether.

Arguing the validity of the policy (pro or con) isn't easily done with an agit-prop poster.
 
I'll have to turn this into an illustrated article with more explanations. I agree that this isn't the best poster.
 
STAGE 2 said:
I'm for the second amendment as much as the next guy, but its really easy to forget that their are wives and children at home waiting for those "jack booted thugs" that some of you are so ready to shoot at.

We always say that a gun is just a thing. I really don't think that any particular thing is worth killing an otherwise worthwhile person over. I can always by another pistol, but I cant give a family back their husband and their father.
Click to expand...

Well that's just too damn bad, isn't it? No one forced them to work for the government, and calling it your job doesn't make it right. And maybe I have a family I need to protect with my guns.
 
Oleg Volk said:
This image changed a lot based on the feedback I received.

whatif_L9L5798.sized.jpg


Verbose, but more clear than the shorter captions I considered.
Click to expand...

I think the point is clearer now. While we don't want the cops getting killed, or private citizens getting killed, the citizen's right and necessity to defend oneself must be upheld because mistakes happen and criminals can and do mimic. ("Mimic" has been a tactic of predators for thousands of years- us deer hunters do it all the time with calls and scents with some degree of success.)
 
slide said:
I think most of the scenarios people gen up for self defense is silly. The idea that burglars will put on Halloween costumes and then break down a door is as silly as needing a 14 shot semi-auto handgun in a street confrontation.

We're not facing a 'determined enemy' but instead weak often badly debilitated losers who aren't in for a fight. They are easy smash and grab types. When they meet resistance, they flee. No whacked out druggie is like portrayed on TV as supermen able to run through gunfire to get their fix.

They are, as a class, pathetic and weak.
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Then perhaps you are not familiar with this particular element.

The Crips in my old neighborhood were doing the "DEA or Task Force dress-up home invasion as far back as the 1990's". Before I was a well-adjusted adult, in my youth I used to hang with such folks (partly because that was one of the only ways to keep from becoming a target in a Crip-run area of town) and I can tell you not only do they do this (sometimes not even dressing up, after all, who can tell in the dark 90% of the time) but that some of these criminals are he real deal, and can execute you or a criminal plan with astounding precision and not think twice about it.
 
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Malice said:
Oleg, I have an idea for a piece in the tradition of the AWB images.

A split-screen. On each side, a guy in black para-military type swat fatigues.

Caption: One of these men is a LAPD SWAT officer. The other is a criminal pretending to be one. Could you tell out of a dead sleep at 2 AM?
Click to expand...

Now that's a good caption!
 
slide said:
That's not my experience except for one weird incident where a guy and a bunch of cronies dressed up like Ninjas to kill everybody save one at a dinner party. The one to be saved was the hostess. The chief perp figured that he'd have a chance at her if her hubby was dead. He was a lovestruck computer programmer. The plan failed.

We do have a duty to know what we're shooting at including who is there. I don't see a bunch of guys breaking in a door and yelling "police" being mistaken for regular criminals. Now you may say that criminals can do this too, but I don't think they have the organization to pull it off. Also, if we have an incident or two of ACTUAL behavior, I'd retract my skepticism.
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Arizona Department of Public Safety - page 7:
http://www.azdps.gov/digest/DataFile.asp?FileID=221

Las Vegas -Third Story Down
http://www.lvrj.com/cgi-bin/printable.cgi?/lvrj_home/2000/Dec-15-Fri-2000/news/15043076.html

Partial Story from San Diego:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go1993/is_200211/ai_n7275779


Oh, and Canada too (I found quite a few from Canada):
http://www.nsnews.com/issues00/w041700/focus.html

There were a few reported in Texas this year I believe, I cannot find the links right now though.

You're welcome...though I am guessing you meant if you had them locally.
 
Well, that's news to me. Even so, and to slant things another way, remember Waco. No matter if every Crip in your area is dressed like a Ninja, if you shoot at one of these DEA guys, you are dead, dead and even deader.

I'd love to see a no knock which resulted in a few unintentional LEO deaths be waived, but it won't happen short of the next American Revolution.
 
slide said:
Well, that's news to me. Even so, and to slant things another way, remember Waco. No matter if every Crip in your area is dressed like a Ninja, if you shoot at one of these DEA guys, you are dead, dead and even deader.
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You're dead either way in some cases. Arguing agast that kinda precludes the justification for a gun for home defense now doesn't it?


I'd love to see a no knock which resulted in a few unintentional LEO deaths be waived, but it won't happen short of the next American Revolution.
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I'd rather see no unintentional deaths, but hey, I'm a dreamer I guess. However, I thought there was a case brought up in this very thread where that very thing did in fact happen...I am sure ther are others, but we both have Google, maybe you could save me the trouble and find a few yourself? I'd be interested to know about them, let me know what you find?
 
Perhaps the police shouldn't be doing things that cause peaceable citizens to shoot at them?

I'm quite offended to think of anyone being shot who doesn't need to be -- and the high probablility of that happening in the course of a no-knock raid is one of the best arguments against them.

One should bear in mind, too, that a thing is not automatically right simply because a LEO does it.

I know a fair number of cops. Most of them are good guys, who look before they leap and are anything but the "jackbooted thug" of modern myth. But they are mortal men and women, neither better nor worse than the noncops I know. And they know there is a price to be paid for kicking in my door. Yours, maybe not; that's your choice.

--Herself
 
Herself said:
I know a fair number of cops. Most of them are good guys, who look before they leap and are anything but the "jackbooted thug" of modern myth. But they are mortal men and women, neither better nor worse than the noncops I know. And they know there is a price to be paid for kicking in my door. Yours, maybe not; that's your choice.

--Herself
Click to expand...

I couldn't have said it any better myself. +1. :D
 
slide said:
That's not my experience except for one weird incident where a guy and a bunch of cronies dressed up like Ninjas to kill everybody save one at a dinner party. The one to be saved was the hostess. The chief perp figured that he'd have a chance at her if her hubby was dead. He was a lovestruck computer programmer. The plan failed.

We do have a duty to know what we're shooting at including who is there. I don't see a bunch of guys breaking in a door and yelling "police" being mistaken for regular criminals. Now you may say that criminals can do this too, but I don't think they have the organization to pull it off. Also, if we have an incident or two of ACTUAL behavior, I'd retract my skepticism.
Click to expand...
Read and heard many reports over the years of such things living in one of the largest cities in the country. No surprize to me - due points I mentioned.

It doesn't take much in the way of "organization" to put on dark clothing and hoods, kick in a door yelling "police" - and pile on inside.

As far as a duty to know who we are shooting at; my first duty is to the protection of myself and family. And anyone not positively identified before entry is going to run into a hailstrom of storm of lead - in addition to some other obstacles.

It is the first duty of government to honor and protect the rights of it's citizens. That is why for instance public officials swear oaths to that effect. That includes the sanctity and security of their own homes.
-----------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
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