War Stories

[Jeff White]

No, not the kind that we often tell while enjoying an adult beverage with our friends. These are courtroom war stories about self defense cases. From Texas. Yes, Texas, that mythical place on internet firearms forums where one can shoot anyone for any reason at anytime and it's ok .

We talk all the time about how costly involvement with the criminal justice system can be and it's routinely blown off by a lot of members who have never had any interaction with the criminal justice system who take comfort in certain provisions of their state laws.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Wow, nightmare stories.

 

[lemaymiami]

Here's my war story (and a true one...). More than forty years ago I fired a single shot as a young officer - ending a suspect's life... Back then there were absolutely no protections for an officer involved in a shooting. I was requested and agreed to a video re-enactment on site less than two hours after the incident, then required to sit down and write a full report of my actions that afternoon. At that time my Department (a hundred man outfit in Dade county, north of Miami) did not do it's own homicide or officer involved shooting investigations. We relied on Metro-Dade, the largest outfit in the Miami area for that service.... At the time there were more than 27 different local police departments in the county - most of them smaller outfits.... Needless to say I was overwhelmed ...

After I'd submitted my report I was allowed to sit in as the homicide team called the on-call State's Attorney for guidance. After the lead investigator provided the facts and circumstances (this was on speaker phone...) the attorney asked what race the victim was (white) and my race (the same) - then said "what's the problem".... and I was allowed to leave the station. That night I was scheduled to work an off-duty job in front of a local night club and I spent that evening going over the incident and my actions - over and over....

Subsequently I learned that instead of a simple ruling clearing me by the State's Attorney's office there would be an inquest, scheduled a few months later to review the facts and circumstances involved - and then things went south.... in my opinion. The offender's family had learned that the small insurance policy they had on their son was null and void if he was killed in the commission of a felony and their only hope was to come up with witnesses willing to lie about the incident and my actions before it occurred (the offender was a young man my agency had arrested on more than one occasion previously - and I had contact with him a few months before the shooting incident..). As I sat in court for the inquest, not called to testify at all, i witnessed open perjury from witness after witness and became concerned that things were not going well at all. I was worried enough that I went to my union representative spelled out the situation and asked if they could provide an attorney or any advice. I was told "kid , if you get indicted - come see us...." and that was the total support I received. Not much fun at all...

Subsequently the court ruled the shooting justified - and that ended the case - but it was several years before I was back on an even keel (understatement).... To this day, I hope I'm never involved in any kind of shooting ever again - and long in retirement - I haven't carried a sidearm even once... If that's a mistake - I'll be the first one to learn about it..

Now for the "rest of the story" ... . 1979 was a rough year in south Florida when that show Miami Vice first started it really did show what our local situation was... Almost the entire shooting team from Metro-Dade was indicted less than a year after my shooting...They were one of more than a few "cocaine cops" that couldn't resist the immense temptations of money and drugs that were present down here at that time... Thank heavens a really thorough investigation by my own department provided a very clear account of what actually happened that day.... For the record - the young man I shot that day - had thrown away his firearm before I finally caught up with him and the shooting occurred - so I shot and killed an unarmed man that day... A citizen witnessed it and came forward to allow my agency to find that firearm (it was a 45 auto taken from a police officer's house in a burglary a few weeks earlier...)... Without that firearm I'm certain my situation would have been far different... That's my "war story"...

 

[21H40]

Here's my war story (and a true one...). More than forty years ago I fired a single shot as a young officer - ending a suspect's life...

Thanks for sharing this. It can be difficult to offer sincere experiences - especially when those experiences change your life dramatically.

More on topic - All examples point to decisions and actions taken by others where the shooter has little or no influence. I don't like to think about the variables in my life that I cannot control, but that doesn't mean those variables don't exist. Are there actions that could have been taken to make this process easier? If not, is this really the best case scenario I should be planning on?

 

[old lady new shooter]

All examples point to decisions and actions taken by others where the shooter has little or no influence.

 

[shafter]

Here's my war story (and a true one...). More than forty years ago I fired a single shot as a young officer - ending a suspect's life... Back then there were absolutely no protections for an officer involved in a shooting. I was requested and agreed to a video re-enactment on site less than two hours after the incident, then required to sit down and write a full report of my actions that afternoon. At that time my Department (a hundred man outfit in Dade county, north of Miami) did not do it's own homicide or officer involved shooting investigations. We relied on Metro-Dade, the largest outfit in the Miami area for that service.... At the time there were more than 27 different local police departments in the county - most of them smaller outfits.... Needless to say I was overwhelmed ...

After I'd submitted my report I was allowed to sit in as the homicide team called the on-call State's Attorney for guidance. After the lead investigator provided the facts and circumstances (this was on speaker phone...) the attorney asked what race the victim was (white) and my race (the same) - then said "what's the problem".... and I was allowed to leave the station. That night I was scheduled to work an off-duty job in front of a local night club and I spent that evening going over the incident and my actions - over and over....

Subsequently I learned that instead of a simple ruling clearing me by the State's Attorney's office there would be an inquest, scheduled a few months later to review the facts and circumstances involved - and then things went south.... in my opinion. The offender's family had learned that the small insurance policy they had on their son was null and void if he was killed in the commission of a felony and their only hope was to come up with witnesses willing to lie about the incident and my actions before it occurred (the offender was a young man my agency had arrested on more than one occasion previously - and I had contact with him a few months before the shooting incident..). As I sat in court for the inquest, not called to testify at all, i witnessed open perjury from witness after witness and became concerned that things were not going well at all. I was worried enough that I went to my union representative spelled out the situation and asked if they could provide an attorney or any advice. I was told "kid , if you get indicted - come see us...." and that was the total support I received. Not much fun at all...

Subsequently the court ruled the shooting justified - and that ended the case - but it was several years before I was back on an even keel (understatement).... To this day, I hope I'm never involved in any kind of shooting ever again - and long in retirement - I haven't carried a sidearm even once... If that's a mistake - I'll be the first one to learn about it..

Now for the "rest of the story" ... . 1979 was a rough year in south Florida when that show Miami Vice first started it really did show what our local situation was... Almost the entire shooting team from Metro-Dade was indicted less than a year after my shooting...They were one of more than a few "cocaine cops" that couldn't resist the immense temptations of money and drugs that were present down here at that time... Thank heavens a really thorough investigation by my own department provided a very clear account of what actually happened that day.... For the record - the young man I shot that day - had thrown away his firearm before I finally caught up with him and the shooting occurred - so I shot and killed an unarmed man that day... A citizen witnessed it and came forward to allow my agency to find that firearm (it was a 45 auto taken from a police officer's house in a burglary a few weeks earlier...)... Without that firearm I'm certain my situation would have been far different... That's my "war story"...

Thank you for sharing. Many are aware of the potential legal and financial costs related to being in a shooting but very few speak of the emotional cost from taking a life, being in a high stress situation living with the stress of the unknown for months or even years.

 

[lemaymiami]

One last kicker to my story… Two years after that day, when I was still dealing with the case emotionally - I received a letter from the Department of Justice. It formally notified me that the civil rights investigation they’d had on my actions that day was being closed (a case that I was never told about…). The letter ended with the implied threat that if I was ever involved in “similar conduct” that they would re-open the case. Nice to know where you stand. All of this long before the armed citizen movement here in Florida.

 

[shafter]

What Lemaymiami shared is a good reason why cops are getting killed today. They are so afraid of getting jammed up for using deadly force that they hesitate and sometimes that proves fatal.

I'm not worried too much about it in my area, but if I lived in a area hostile to gun ownership I would be very reluctant to carry.

 

[lemaymiami]

Must disagree - but not for the reasons you've mentioned. The big reason for officer casualties is that, around the country most Departments have forgotten (or never learned) good officer survival tactics and to top if off the worst thing you can do to a young officer is to leave him or her doubting the folks they work for.... Most cops will never fire a single shot on the street - and until you've been down that road most will have had no experience with what comes afterwards... My choice not to carry a sidearm on my person doesn't mean I don't keep firearms in close proximity at all - just that in my case I know any deadly force on my part had better be an absolute last resort...

Years ago down here in paradise we put together a very good officer survival course when I was in charge of training - and we "killed" every officer up and down the line that participated as part of the exercises. We also changed our policies to minimize, as much as possible, officer's exposure to ambush. Almost every time I see video of officers being injured these days in ambush situations I just cringe since most that I see goes against everything we trained for.... I won't go into specifics - but your tactics on the street have a great bearing on any officer's chances of injury. No, you can't eliminate risk - and officers will be killed on the job - but much of what I see these days is about tactics that aren't sound at all... Your tactics in any violent encounter are the key to the outcome in many cases - much more important than the weapons you carry - and that goes for any armed citizen as well. The violent encounter you avoid is your best outcome, period. Using sound tactics when confronted by a possible defensive situation will go a long way to determining the outcome in my opinion. This whole question of tactics is not something being taught to citizens at all - that I know of..... Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Back to our current situation in policing -the folks who oppose reasonable law enforcement (particularly in our big northern cities) have created an environment where the average cop has good reason to question the support he or she will receive it they actually do their jobs.. I can't think of anything more damaging to their morale - and it has to change. Folks everywhere at the bottom of the economic scale greatly suffer directly when policing is reduced - wish it weren't so.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Back to our current situation in policing -the folks who oppose reasonable law enforcement (particularly in our big northern cities) have created an environment where the average cop has good reason to question the support he or she will receive it they actually do their jobs.. I can't think of anything more damaging to their morale - and it has to change. Folks everywhere at the bottom of the economic scale greatly suffer directly when policing is reduced - wish it weren't so.

Personally. I think that the big blue cities are trying to defund, demoralize and disband the local police so that they have an excuse to bring in federalized police... .

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Here's my war story (and a true one...). More than forty years ago I fired a single shot as a young officer - ending a suspect's life... Back then there were absolutely no protections for an officer involved in a shooting. I was requested and agreed to a video re-enactment on site less than two hours after the incident, then required to sit down and write a full report of my actions that afternoon. At that time my Department (a hundred man outfit in Dade county, north of Miami) did not do it's own homicide or officer involved shooting investigations. We relied on Metro-Dade, the largest outfit in the Miami area for that service.... At the time there were more than 27 different local police departments in the county - most of them smaller outfits.... Needless to say I was overwhelmed ...

After I'd submitted my report I was allowed to sit in as the homicide team called the on-call State's Attorney for guidance. After the lead investigator provided the facts and circumstances (this was on speaker phone...) the attorney asked what race the victim was (white) and my race (the same) - then said "what's the problem".... and I was allowed to leave the station. That night I was scheduled to work an off-duty job in front of a local night club and I spent that evening going over the incident and my actions - over and over....

Subsequently I learned that instead of a simple ruling clearing me by the State's Attorney's office there would be an inquest, scheduled a few months later to review the facts and circumstances involved - and then things went south.... in my opinion. The offender's family had learned that the small insurance policy they had on their son was null and void if he was killed in the commission of a felony and their only hope was to come up with witnesses willing to lie about the incident and my actions before it occurred (the offender was a young man my agency had arrested on more than one occasion previously - and I had contact with him a few months before the shooting incident..). As I sat in court for the inquest, not called to testify at all, i witnessed open perjury from witness after witness and became concerned that things were not going well at all. I was worried enough that I went to my union representative spelled out the situation and asked if they could provide an attorney or any advice. I was told "kid , if you get indicted - come see us...." and that was the total support I received. Not much fun at all...

Subsequently the court ruled the shooting justified - and that ended the case - but it was several years before I was back on an even keel (understatement).... To this day, I hope I'm never involved in any kind of shooting ever again - and long in retirement - I haven't carried a sidearm even once... If that's a mistake - I'll be the first one to learn about it..

Now for the "rest of the story" ... . 1979 was a rough year in south Florida when that show Miami Vice first started it really did show what our local situation was... Almost the entire shooting team from Metro-Dade was indicted less than a year after my shooting...They were one of more than a few "cocaine cops" that couldn't resist the immense temptations of money and drugs that were present down here at that time... Thank heavens a really thorough investigation by my own department provided a very clear account of what actually happened that day.... For the record - the young man I shot that day - had thrown away his firearm before I finally caught up with him and the shooting occurred - so I shot and killed an unarmed man that day... A citizen witnessed it and came forward to allow my agency to find that firearm (it was a 45 auto taken from a police officer's house in a burglary a few weeks earlier...)... Without that firearm I'm certain my situation would have been far different... That's my "war story"...

One of my bosses on a security gig was a retired Warwick N.Y cop who went through years of turmoil after an OIS

https://www.capecodtimes.com/story/news/2008/04/19/court-upholds-ruling-in-warwick/52442066007/

 

[lemaymiami]

In my case, I was five years on the job before the shooting and pretty clueless about good tactics and the best use of a shotgun in a confrontation. Afterwards it did take a few years for me to get my head screwed back on properly and then begin to learn everything I could about my preferred weapon, a shotgun, and the best tactics to actually survive a possible shooting incident. My bible, all those years ago was the book Street Survival - but it was a few years after that incident before I had a copy to read and re-read...

As time went on I moved up the ladder from sergeant, then to lieutenant with varying jobs (one of them was in charge of training...) where I was fortunate enough to have some very competent trainers who put together a first rate (for a small department) officer survival course that we put every member or our hundred man force through..

Back to court stuff... I may be biased (no one will ever allow me on a jury...) but in my years as a cop, in and out of various courts as part of the job, I rarely saw anything that looked to me like real justice in any courtroom... In that arena it was all about who wins and who loses in my view with little in the way of justice... Occasionally I saw justice -but not often. To this day I'd do what I can to stay out of the justice system if at all possible..

 

[Matthew Temkin]

After 32.5 years as a NYC Court Officer/Senior Court Clerk I heartily agree.
Thank you for your service.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I implore everyone to get some type of self defense insurance.
There are many options/companies.
Do some research and choose.

 

[scaatylobo]

In my case, I was five years on the job before the shooting and pretty clueless about good tactics and the best use of a shotgun in a confrontation. Afterwards it did take a few years for me to get my head screwed back on properly and then begin to learn everything I could about my preferred weapon, a shotgun, and the best tactics to actually survive a possible shooting incident. My bible, all those years ago was the book Street Survival - but it was a few years after that incident before I had a copy to read and re-read...

As time went on I moved up the ladder from sergeant, then to lieutenant with varying jobs (one of them was in charge of training...) where I was fortunate enough to have some very competent trainers who put together a first rate (for a small department) officer survival course that we put every member or our hundred man force through..

Back to court stuff... I may be biased (no one will ever allow me on a jury...) but in my years as a cop, in and out of various courts as part of the job, I rarely saw anything that looked to me like real justice in any courtroom... In that arena it was all about who wins and who loses in my view with little in the way of justice... Occasionally I saw justice -but not often. To this day I'd do what I can to stay out of the justice system if at all possible..

I see and grasp your points.

But [ you knew there was a but ] I also see that for me,it is better to be tried by 12 etc.

I am retired 15 years and CCW everywhere ! thanks to HR218 [ LEOSA ].

LOD use of my gun never caused me grief,thankfully.

And hell yes ,if you carry a gun and do not carry insurance = your a fool & an accident waiting to happen.

I was blessed in that I knew what I did not know.

So I was the first officer from my agency to attend Street Survival classes when they came to my AO

And sadly I was the only officer in my city that went to that class.

I became a defensive tactics instructor and a firearms instr because I wanted to be ON ,each & every day.

I feel sorry for those that do not TRAIN for "that moment".

Walking around heeled is not near good enough !!.

And I wont even start on the "new street officers" ,they are more worried about keeping their man bun that training on their own dime.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Unfortunately police officers such as you are rare.
I worked sidegigs with a lot of NYPD officers (in the mid 80’s) and many poked fun are the guys who owned more than two guns, attended training outside their department and who took officer safety seriously.
I believe the derogatory term was “Rubber Dicks”

 

[1911 guy]

I have never had to fire a shot as a civilian. Hope I never do. But I know two things for certain. First, taking a life, justified or not, takes a toll. The price depends on circumstance. But to think there is no price to be paid in your mind and in your soul is naive. But we seldom get to choose. If I got to choose, I'd choose to be somewhere else that day. Second, you'll be in a courtroom surrounded by professional liars and your only hope is your guy spins a better yarn. Any talk about "justice" in our legal system is, well, again, naive. I'm going to continue being a little paranoid and avoid as much trouble as I can.