Was 1989-2004 The Dark Days of Gun Ownership or 1968-1986?

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gfanikf

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http://www.nytimes.com/1989/07/08/us/import-ban-on-assault-rifles-becomes-permanent.html

The article is a lesson from history about how despite someone being your candidate or saying something that vigilance (especially when an area can be imports and not requiring further Congressional Approval) is always required. I also blame all of you older people for making it impossible for me to get an MP5!:cuss: :D

That said I was wondering was it worst dealing with or did you feel that the tide was against gun ownership from the time of the GCA in 1968 till the modifications in the FOPA in 1986 or from Bush Sr 1989 to the Crime Bill in 1994 and state measures till 2004 (when the push towards carry, less gun control laws, and the end of the AWB). I never owned a gun till a year ago, heck I even thought the AWB was a good idea...I was eleven, so I have no context to judge.
 
I'd say the late '60s and the early 1970s were the worst. We were consistently taking face shots. Remember, prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968, an ordinary customer could order firearms by mail. Even import them. Ammo, too.

The tide started to turn in the late '70s. FOPA '86 hosed the NFA community, but greatly helped everybody else. Remember, under GCA'68, you couldn't even order ammunition by mail without an FFL.

The late '80s and early '90s were a wash...on the surface. We gained shall-issue in a significant number of states, enough to prove the point that blood would not run freely in the streets. We lost on the AWB - but made it a Pyrrhic victory for our opponents. And Bob Dole had craftily inserted a sunset provision. Finally, we started to see serious legal scholarship focused on the 2nd Amendment, which laid the foundation for the Heller decision.
 
I also blame all of you older people for making it impossible for me to get an MP5!

Are you a felon? Fugitive? Drug user? Mentally unstable?

If you answered yes to any of those, it's your fault.. Otherwise you can buy a MP5.
 
Are you a felon? Fugitive? Drug user? Mentally unstable?

If you answered yes to any of those, it's your fault.. Otherwise you can buy a MP5.
I meant a new one. :p Besides it was just a sarcastic throw away joke.
 
For those in NJ, 1966 was the worst year...two years before 1968 GCA. That was when an ID card issued by the police was needed to buy a long guns in NJ including air rifles. Pistol permits (one for each pistol) were needed since 1954. These laws still exist today despite the 1968 GCA and the NICS instant check. Illinois taking inspiration from NJ, started their own ID card scheme in 1968, Massachusetts a few years later.

The dark days might have started after the assassination of JFK, the 1967 riots and into the assassinations of MLK and RFK and those riots which quickly followed all which fueled the anti-gun hysteria to new heights leading into the 1968 GCA. There were proposals to outlaw guns or severely restrict them.

Little known fact, revealed in the hearings for the the 1966 Firearms ID card in NJ was NJ Attorney General Arthur Sills who spearheaded the NJ FID law was helping Dodd with writing a National Gun Control law...later on known as the 1968 GCA.

Even though until 1968 one could buy firearms interstate through mail order without and ID. Some states already had draconian gun control laws already in place like NJ. In addition, there were talk about banning certain guns in Massachusetts and Philadelphia. Passaic NJ was one of those towns which at one time was proposing a handgun ban. (It didn't happen).

One would have to assume that the 'Jim Crow' laws in Southern states were in place for some time already and those places like North Carolina needed to get a permit to buy a pistol in the state. Again, since it was legal before 1968 GCA to buy firearms including pistols in other states. Some people did just that legally to avoid the laws of their own state...

Personally I think the tide turned for gun rights in the 1990's after the AWB and Clinton gun laws and talk of a Brady II and a 'arsenal' license. There was a backlash starting against the restrictions. When some Illinois cities banned handguns, Kennesaw Georgia made national headlines by requiring owners to have a weapon in their house.

The Kennesaw GA. decision, made people take notice. The media had to report the story that guns weren't about 'sporting purposes', or something that criminals used, it was about self defense of the homeowner and it was required. Kennesaw GA. in my opinion was the light in the tunnel.

It was the concealed carry movement that exploded across the country that started the the turning of the tide for the gun ownership for the better. And it is still going strong and ever stronger today.

In 1968 there were few places that allowed conceal carry and those that did, needed a 'reason' for a permit. Some states allowed open carry. In 2012 a good portion of the states have shall issue conceal carry permits. Some states now don't need a permit for conceal carry. I believe in 1968 Vermont was the only state.

FOPA 1986 ended the interstate ban on ammunition purchases. With 1968 GCA, you had to buy ammo in your own state and had to sign for it. But I believe it was the conceal carry movement that really turned the tide and changed things for the better.

Edit

There were some good things that came out of bad instances.

Like the Luby's massacre , where Suzanna Gratia Hupp had her pistol but due to Texas law was unable to defend against the gunman who killed her parents.

"As a survivor of the Luby's massacre, Hupp testified across the country in support of concealed-handgun laws. She said that if there had been a second chance to prevent the slaughter, she would have violated the Texas law and carried the handgun inside her purse into the restaurant." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanna_Hupp

The incident and her testimony help open the eyes of many for the right to self defense. Out of her loss, she helped opened doors and helped with enacting conceal carry laws across the country.

The Katrina gun confiscations led to the passage of many states enacting laws against gun confiscations in times of emergency...
 
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The AWB was mostly a nuisance, and it ironically ended up strengthening gun rights and the RKBA movement through its stupidity.

The darkest days for the RKBA actually came right after FDR came to power, and we came within a HAIR'S BREADTH of having all handguns classed with machine guns! It was essentially a socialist takeover of government, but thankfully the federal law was limited to full auto and the DD's.

This is why the resulting NFA has those rules about overall length and forbidding cut-down long guns. Originally those would have made more sense in context because ALL concealable firearms were covered including handguns! Thank the Maker some more rational minds blocked the handgun ban and convinced Congress to keep it limited to "whipit" shotguns and full autos.

If things had gone differently we would have grown up in a nation which viewed handguns just as we view machine guns now.

Also, if you look at state laws from the 1900's through the 50's you will find state after state copying the Jim Crow anti-CCW laws. Even states where the tradition had been in place during the "wild west." There was strong public sentiment against carrying or even having short guns. It was seen as dishonest and uncivilized. We tend to look at those times through rose-colored glasses, but the laws tell a very different story.
 
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Here's how I perceive it.

While the post 68 frenzy was intense and motivated by a couple of individual and separate events, it still had to cope with a very large sporting population and was held to relatively reasonable limits given the prevailing reactionary passions of the time.

The later madness however received the full-court-press of an exceptionally hostile and deliberately dishonest mass media. This modern multi medium media was an absolute juggernaut with the politicians in effect trailing the social manipulators masquerading as "news" providers in advancing anti gun - for the sake of anti at all costs.

An honest look back would show that survival of any gun owner's rights at all in the more modern era rest with one organization, a very few politicians and all the individuals backing the same. Much as they piss me off sometimes...
 
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Truth is, we live in about the most gun-friendly era ever right now. I know some people are probably saying "yeah, right...", but seriously, let's look at the facts:

-We have the protective provisions of Volkner McClure (FOPA)
-We have CCW in 49 of 50 states, most are shall-issue.
-The AWB is gone
-There is no federal waiting period
-Most places, NFA stuff is GTG.
-Overall firearm ownership is at an all-time high, with roughly as many guns as there are citizens. That makes it more difficult to take them.
-Heller
-McDonald

Like Cosmoline said

We tend to look at those times through rose-colored glasses, but the laws tell a very different story.

Even prior to the NFA, there were TONS of gun laws; They just weren't federal. Even most towns in the "wild west" had prohibitions on carrying firearms.

Bottom line is, today, if you can afford it, you can have virtually anything you want. But even those with more modest incomes can still have quite a few toys. Machine guns are really the only thing that's difficult to obtain, and that's just a financial matter; Most of us simply can't afford $15k to play with our own M16.

No other nation in the world has such freedom WRT firearms, and at no other time in history have we had this combination of available firearms, generally favorable view of gun ownership across the nation, protection from a patchwork of state and local laws and relatively easy acquisition.
 
As much as I'd hate to relive either it is a fact that some very real advances came from both instances.

First (and less this, we would likely be up the creek with Britain today!) and likely most importantly the events surrounding the '68 act and the near roll over inside the NRA that caused an internal revolution is STILL operating to our advantage........lest any forget, the appeasing elements in the organization wanted to abandon ANY activist stance and retreat into the New Mexico sunset with the Whittington Center.....Kudos to Neal Knox for leading us out of that valley of death.

Secondly, while the '86 law left us stinging from the Hughes Amendment...it still did immeasurable good and at least opened up some avenues of trade and acquisition that were previously utterly forbidden or laced with really onerous provision.

The AWB also had it's bright side.......it ultimately struck terror into the political heart of the loudest and most active extremists of the GC movement....and that is precisely why it is a subject that is as likely to be brought up openly as an invitation to a church social was include Billy Carter.


The war ain't over, never will be, but IF we can lay aside differences, vote our own interests, and NOT roll over we can keep the momentum up!!
 
1934 to the present.

As was said, rose colored glasses.

How would you like to have gone from one township where anything and everything was legal to being stopped in the next one 40 miles away and tossed in the slammer for violating some local ordinance you had no idea existed (during a time when checking such things was much more involved than 5 minutes of google-fu)?

We really do live in good times right now. Let's keep it that way.
 
"The Kennesaw GA. decision, made people take notice. The media had to report the story that guns weren't about 'sporting purposes', or something that criminals used, it was about self defense of the homeowner and it was required. Kennesaw GA. in my opinion was the light in the tunnel."

This is the big reason I even own a few guns at this point. In Scouts I had to use this with my parents and Scoutmaster in order to take up the shotgun shooting merit badge.

And is likely the reason NW Cobb County, Southern Bartow County, and SW Cherokee county are relatively crime free (crime happens, but it isn't like south of I-20 just saying no offense) as regardless of generation we were taught that it is okay to shoot a bad guy if they are trying to hurt you as they do it in Kennesaw. 8)

I would go as far to say that it is the reason why to this day anti gun people avoid trying to pass laws on the state level. So my hats off to the older people who thought that law up in Kennesaw we owe you big in Georgia.
 
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First thing I'll do if The Hughes amendment was repealed would be get an AK74.

The laws are becoming far better than what they were. It would be nice to become a country like Switzerland regarding the gun culture but better. :)
 
It would be nice to become a country like Switzerland regarding the gun culture but better

Look up Swiss gun laws. Better than most Western European countries, but somewhat draconian by our standards:

FA and supressor sales restricted, special permit required, at the discretion of the cantonal police

Limits on purchases, permits required

National registration

Private sales must be reported/recorded

Ammunition sales are recorded

Open carry not allowed without "specific destination"

CCW is may issue

Must be 18 to possess any firearm


Now let's compare. In the USA:

FA and supressor sales restricted, tax required, will be approved if transfer is lawful

No limits on purchases, no permits required

National registration is absolutely prohibited

Private sales do not need to be reported/recorded

Ammunition sales are cash & carry

Open carry allowed federally

CCW is largely shall issue

No minimum age for title I long gun possession, 18 for handguns, 21 for most NFA stuff


It certianly gets more complicated here with state & local laws, but by and large, we have it much easier. We just don't get a government issued FA assualt rifle to keep at home while we're between 20-30 years old.
 
Look up Swiss gun laws. Better than most Western European countries, but somewhat draconian by our standards:

Sigh...

I said culture, not gun laws. Private gun ownership is highly encouraged for the security of the country, the police aren't called in panic over someone open carrying a rifle, shooting ranges are predominant, shooting is the national sport, etc.
 
I said culture, not gun laws. Private gun ownership is highly encouraged for the security of the country, the police aren't called in panic over someone open carrying a rifle, shooting ranges are predominant, shooting is the national sport, etc.

That's true. I wasn't really thinking in those terms.

Having said that, Switzerland is a much smaller country, and there are many parts of ours which compare favorably in culture, and are better in freedom. I could be wrong, but I don't believe you can just find any old desolate public land in Switzerland and start blasting away like we can here. Pretty sure that, other than hunting, they have to use designated ranges. We can just find a chunk of BLM or national forest and, as long as we have a safe backstop and are a certain distance from the road, begin firing.
 
Once again, nothing stopping you from buying one now.

It isn't so much nothing is "stopping" the purchase(although the artificially inflated price caused by the draconian law is a factor), it's the hoops and the tax constituting an infringement that is the problem. Ergo, the problem dates back to 1934 with the registration and the tax. It has never gotten better since then, only worse.

Woody
 
If anyone wishes to look at the history surrounding the 1968 gun control act. I found a site that gives a good account about what happened and how it turned out like it did.

http://jpfo.org/articles-assd02/gca68-nra4.htm

1958 Then Mass. Senator John Kennedy introduced legislation to "control the importation of surplus military firearms". The article says Kennedy's motivation was protectionist.


The "Dodd hearings" did not start in 1968, it started much earlier.

"..... 1961, Senator Thomas Dodd (D-CT) directed the staff to conduct a study of mail order sales of firearms."

It was two years later (in 1963) that Dodd proposed his first bill requiring a notarized affidavit that the purchaser was over 18 for mail order handgun purchases.


There was legislation to have all guns registered.

"Senator Joseph Tydings (D- MD), who replaced Senator Dodd .. introduced ... Senate Bill 3634 would have established national firearm registration and required a license issued by the Secretary of Treasury to possess a firearm."

Another bill required registration by the police.
"Senate Bill 3637, required registration through local police authorities but not a license to possess a firearm."

There were gun bills from 1964 through 1968 but the "Dodd Bill" was a generic description for all gun legislation. The NRA leadership was willing to compromise with Dodd in 1965. The article goes into the 'split' at the NRA, and what happened later on in 1977 'coup'.


Destructive Devices
"Destructive Devices" and machine guns received 'substantial attention' in the 1965 hearing. "During the 1965 hearings, advocates displayed destructive devices such as rocket launchers, presumably in an effort to symbolically demonize the firearm trade."

Interesting how it all came together, and what and who proposed what and what didn't pass. 1968 could have turned out much worse, we could have had all guns registered and owners licensed.
 
You know the real dark days may be yet to arrive my friends.:mad: Any of this foolishness is a problem I am afraid. Until we have all the liberties that the outlaws take and those become legal rights we still have problems.
 
Ergo, the problem dates back to 1934 with the registration and the tax. It has never gotten better since then, only worse.

I disagree. Yes, some things have become worse (importation bans, closing of the MG registry). However, some things have become much better. Before FOPA, you could really be snared traveling cross-country with firearms. And just a short 20 years ago, CCW existed as only a small fraction of what it is today.

One must remember that firearms are not unique to the technological maturity paradigm. That is, as a technology becomes more advanced, more capable and more prevalent, it begins to see regulations due to irresponsible, negligent or malicious use;

There wasn't much in the way of traffic laws in the 1890's when the first commercial automobiles began to travel the roads of America. But as the numbers of automobiles grew, and as the power and speed increased, we started seeing injuries and fatalities, and so laws were created to license drivers, limit speed, have some conformity as to the side of the road you traveled on, right of way, etc.

There weren't many hacker laws in 1982 when the internet went live. But as computers became faster and more powerful and people began to use this global connection nefariously, we began to see regulations and cyber defense systems.

Similar to the above examples, firearms development in the late 19th century went nuts, and by prohibition (largely because of prohibition), you saw these advanced firearms being used on a large scale by criminals, with horrific results. And so the NFA became.

I don't favor gun control at all, but at the same time, I think we can agree that a tormented, unstable 16 year old kid being able to walk in and buy a belt fed machine gun and a 40mm grenade launcher cash & carry to go tear up his bully's house and whoever is in it isn't a good idea. Yes, that kid could acquire those things regardless of the laws we have, but he would have to be very determined, well funded and risk getting caught with them before he did whatever he was planning to do.

If you want to see what lawlessness and unfettered access to weapons of all kinds looks like, then take a peek at places like Somolia and various other countries in that region.

Unfortunate as it may be, in a society of 300 million people, we do have to have some laws to be civilized and reasonably safe. I don't like not being able to buy a supressor any time I want with no hassle, but I'd be lying if I said I wan't glad the punk neighbor kid I yell at for driving by too fast can't stop by the local hardware store and pick up some hand grenades to throw at my house on his way home. Yeah, that would be a stretch, but people, and especially adolescent or teenaged people, don't always think straight and can act very irrationally when angry, hormonal or both.

We responsible gun owners sometimes forget that there are a lot of people out there with no criminal history who shouldn't be trusted with a razor blade, much less a rocket launcher. The restrictions placed on NFA stuff making it a protracted and expensive process to obain said items is the only reason we can boast that a registered machine gun has never been used criminally in this country. The other reason it actually works is because it was done a long time ago and there were relatively few such weapons in circulation.

I would like to see the MG registry reopened, silencers, SBR's and SBS's moved to title I and the tax stamp reduced to an administrative fee for processing paperwork. BUT..........I don't want to see claymores, javelins and RPGs for sale at the LGS for any idiot to buy if he so much as has the cash to pay for them. It's our right to keep and bear arms, and you'll be hard pressed to find a more staunch supporter than I. That said, I'm not stupid, and I understand that some weapons pose too great a risk to not be regulated to a certain extent that reasonably certifies the individual buying them can be trusted with them.
 
Its more than either era, since the NICS has been " reinterpreted" by various admins....its now possible to get denied without being a fugitive, felon, wife beater, drug user..... I am STILL caught in between NH DoS and NICS, routinely denied on dealer transfers... and I work as an armed guard at federal sites....yeah, I have an attorney, bit for now its till " back of the bus " & FTF sales for me....so don' t tell me " its your own fault ".
 
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