Was this really a good idea at this time

[george burns]

It is called the Echo trigger and fires a second round on the reset stroke of the trigger, thus making every shot a double tap. I think it just is being presented at a bad time for us. Maybe after the elections it would go undetected, as most gun related things do, but if a smart "anti", reporter gets his teeth into this, "which I am sure they already have if it was in my email". It will cause more concern, thoughts?
https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/fostechs-echo-trigger-fires-rapid-fire-double-taps/#comment-96430

 

[UpperAtmosphere]

It's no worse than a bumpfire stock, which we have been able to get for years (for less money, too - $479? Naw, man. Naw.)

BUT. The first time a bumpfire stock - or the Echo - is used in a high-publicity event, that'll be the end of that.

 

[Jim K]

Personally, I think it is dangerous as heck, but it appears to be legal. It is commonly thought that the law defines a machinegun as firing more than one shot by a single PULL of the trigger, but the law actually says "by a single function of the trigger". That gun fires one shot with one function (pull) and one with another function (release).

But in practice I can't see where it is really faster than a second pull. It is just another way some people with too much time on their hands have figured out to tweak "the establishment" and do something to stir people up. IMHO, that may sometimes be necessary, but doing it just for juvenile fun is not a good idea.

FWIW, years ago there was a trigger made for shotguns called a "release trigger". The idea was that somehow releasing the trigger caused less disturbance to the gun than pulling it. When the trigger was pulled, nothing happened; when it was released the gun went off.

The problem was that if someone not familiar with the gun used it, there was a tendency to pull the trigger, then let the attention (and muzzle) stray when trying to figure out why the gun didn't fire. I don't know of any casualties, but I do know some folks got a bit shook up and there could have been serious consequences. The release trigger, AFAIK, is no longer sold, and I refused to install them.

This looks like it also could have unintended consequences. I don't like it.

Jim

 

[Drail]

It would require some serious disciplining of the shooter and I mean SERIOUS. The average shooter would have an "accident" the first time they handled it loaded. There seems to be no shortage of people that cannot even figure out how to be safe with a Glock trigger. The idea that it is faster is ridiculous to anyone who has stood next to Jerry Miculek and watched him cycle a DA revolver. I have and I realized instantly that it's not the gun or the trigger - it's the shooter.

 

[Sam1911]

I don't believe this is actually new. I think folks have been modding triggers to do that for years, on some guns, though it isn't popular for obvious reasons.

There have been "release" triggers on trap shotguns for decades, and it does take discipline to use them safely.


Having said all that, I don't buy the idea that this couldn't come at a worse time, or would be better holding off. Meh. The law says what it says and re-writing the law to change the definition of a machine gun would be tinkering with the NFA from all the way back in 1934. I don't see that happening. So unless someone manages to pass a law specifically outlawing THESE devices, by name or by function, I don't know what the harm could be.

You can do very purposeful, accurate "simulated full-auto" fire with some of the short-reset triggers like the Tac-Con 3MR and such. And those haven't raised even an eyebrow, let alone a huge legislative kerfuffle.

 

[TomJ]

The anti's are going to talk badly about us regardless of what we do. I'd judge an idea or product on it's merits alone and not worry about what the anti's say.

 

[mgmorden]

I'm convinced that most anti's ALREADY don't know the difference between semi-auto and full auto fire. They're still convinced that AR-15's are "machine guns". Something like this will generate more confusion among them than outrage (if they even hear about it).

Unless somebody uses one in a crime (unlikely) I just don't see it doing much on the political front.

 

[F-111 John]

The trigger is for the AR platform and the selector has three positions: Safe, Semi, and "Echo." If you flip the safety to the normal semi position, it acts just like any semi trigger.

You must flip it to what would be the Auto position to get the reset fire mode. If you are in the "Echo" mode and squeeze and hold the trigger, you can flip the safety back to either semi or safe and the reset fire is canceled.

And I think it is nothing more than a range toy. You can easily outrun the gun if you pull and release too quickly. The hammer ends up following the bolt home, and you are left with a dead firearm until you charge it again.

Video from MAC shooting the nearly identical Franklin Armory BFS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVJHVqgXRVI

 

[shooter1]

Can't imagine anyone paying to have that device on any firearm. I'd pay money to keep it off mine. Totally useless and dangerous in my opinion.
str1

 

[Shaq]

One of the most dangerous & undesirable things I've ever heard of.

Sorta reminds me of the "Rifleman's" rifle loaded with real ammo (fires every time the action is closed). Great for entertainment but dangerous & stupid for real.

 

[cougar1717]

The shot show has to deliver some hype, but it is really a bad idea. The typical person who uses a release trigger on a shotgun is either a competition shooter or someone who is up in years and has a detrimental flinch, not from inexperience, but because your body doesn't function like it used to.
If the echo is really "doubling," then it probably does have a problem. If Bubba whittles on his AR disconnector and it doubles, we know that to be a problem. With the exception of the integrated safety, this isn't much different. I would be very interested to see the ATF ruling on this one.

 

[ttarp]

Seems like it would be a much better choice than a bumpfire stock, and I could see it having an impact on 3 gun competitions as it makes a quick controlled double tap, but outside of maybe using it in a competition I wouldn't have any use for it. It seems like you get the stinkeye at the range if you fire more than 1 shot every 10 seconds these days, so I can't see it being used very often anyway.

I honestly don't see what folks think is dangerous about this, if you have poor enough muzzle discipline for this trigger to be dangerous you shouldn't be going near a firearm period.

 

[Zerodefect]

Franklin Armory has been making AR15's with this trigger for a long time. They work perfectly well and are perfectly safe. They have a 3 way safety, safe, single, and the auto position gives the fire on pull and fire on release.

In the auto position, you just have to shoot like a newb. Basicly don't hold the trigger back like a precision shot. Bounce on it so that your finger is off the trigger, before you leave the target. So finger off the trigger just like normal, but every shot is 2 shots.

It's actually pretty easy to use. If you do screw up and get stupid and hold the trigger back, you can flick the safety on to stop the release shot.

I have no idea why this would be cool in a pistol. The last thing I need is more rapid fire than what I already get from a Glock or 1911.

 

[Tirod]

Full auto fire isn't precision fire - you aim to put out a "cone" of fire which amounts to the MOA dispersion plus the gun rattling off the bi- or tripod. It does spray bullets - and exactly what the intent is, to provide coverage of an area to some degree.

You don't want to be that guy popping up from behind cover because dodge left or right the cone of impact can be large enough to still hit you. It is NOT precise at all.

Now ask yourself exactly how the average shooter gets much out of it in this day and age of firearms use. Is the Bumpfire stock a common option on many AR's sold right now? No, it's still a niche product for a small number of shooters. Have we seen Bumpfire stocks being used in 3 Gun or other competition shoots? No, there is no advantage - we don't set up the scoring to prefer more rounds being shot less accurately for the win.

So, who's going to bother getting a trigger on the AR which fires on pull, then fires on release? As said, some trap shooters do, is that trigger a major selling option for duck and goose guns? No.

All it does is simulate full auto in a legal manner, and it won't get you more accurate shooting or garner any points for getting more hits. Except in some people's minds, as a self defense weapon.

If you were confronted by someone shooting at you with this trigger, would it actually unload the weapon more accurately and faster, making it more lethal? Not so much - it can run away, causing jams, and after the first three or four shots if you couldn't make it to cover, why would it be any worse than a semi auto shooter just pulling the trigger as fast as they could?

In short, it really doesn't do to much extra, if anything, and certainly not better. Again - the trigger has been on the market for shotguns and isn't that good an idea, most shotguns still don't bother with it. AR's? Same, and option on one makers and nobody is rushing to have them in most of the product line. For most shooters it doesn't make them more accurate, and certainly does empty their pocket book by consuming ammo much faster than before. We already have an issue with that shooting 5.56 because it recoils less and lets us shoot more, but there is a threshold where enough is enough. We shoot 5.56 - or 7.62x39 - because it's cheap. The alternate cartridge shooters paying $1 around aren't popping that many rounds unless they reload or can get real bargains.

I don't see this as some crazy ticket to a ban - anybody can abuse any firearm as it is, in fact, many of them used in "mass" shootings are completely legal "lo cap" magazine weapons nobody tries to specifically outlaw. If anything that is the point with the antigunners - somebody uses a normal gun but they put out reams of releases about the evil black AR15's we need to outlaw. They use anything they want to push their agenda even if there is no direct relationship whatsoever.

If you don't like the concept it would be better to explain in some detail why - because waving the "ban" flag isn't the valid reason and doesn't fly.

 

[Nature Boy]

I don't understand the market for this. Same for bump fire stocks. Perhaps someone who would buy this could explain its desirability. For me, doubling is something to avoid, not a design feature

 

[USAF_Vet]

As stated, binary triggers are nothing new. And like anything else, proper training is highly recommended.

It does nothing for me, but I don't see it as dangerous or useless, certainly not something to be avoided because of political reasons. Some people like simulated full auto, or simulated burst fire. Don't like it, don't buy it.

 

[M-Cameron]

I don't understand the market for this. Same for bump fire stocks. Perhaps someone who would buy this could explain its desirability. For me, doubling is something to avoid, not a design feature

youd use this in the same capacity youd use a 3 round burst....would be great for a high volume or supressive fire situation

 

[Sam1911]

Same for bump fire stocks. Perhaps someone who would buy this could explain its desirability. For me, doubling is something to avoid, not a design feature

Do you understand the ways that full-auto fire work? There are two, basically:

1) Area-denial fire. A machine-gunner saturates an area with bullets, keeping the enemy's heads down while his team moves to flank them.

2) Rapid multiple hits on close-range targets with submachine guns or assault rifles. If you've ever participated in a practical match (USPSA/IDPA/3-gun) or taken training in fighting with a firearm you'll recognize the mantra of multiple hits on center-of-mass for quickest and most sure threat stopping. A skilled shooter can fire bursts of shots with a (light-recoiling) automatic weapon that will put all those shots right on target as fast or faster than a (all but the most exceptionally) skilled shooter can with semi-auto fire.

Either of those things can be learned and practiced and some of these devices you're asking about can produce the same results as can be achieved with a full-auto weapon. A 3-gun shooter running a 3MR trigger can get get a sight picture on a target and have 2-3 hits on it within a second and be moving to the next target.

Whether this "binary" trigger is as effective as something like a 3MR trigger remains to be seen, but it isn't a stupid or pointless idea.

 

[M-Cameron]

also, to all you people claiming its "dangerous"........how exactly?

name one situation you have ever pulled the trigger, fired a shot....and then turned the muzzle to point at someone before you released the trigger?

because that is the only situation where this could potentially be "dangerous".....and would require GROSS NEGLIGENCE on behalf of the shooter to acheive

 

[Nature Boy]

Sam, I spent a total of 23 years of service in the army and 2 combat tours so I understand suppressive fire.

I was more curious about the civilian market for these. My first blush opinion is, it seems pretty stupid and pointless, but that's to me. For someone else, might be the greatest thing to come along since pump actions ARs

 

[DeepSouth]

While I have never shot an Echo trigger, I'd imagine it would be difficult to control that second shot. Seems like something I would stay away from, but like I said, I've never shot one.


Bump stocks are good for 2 things, wasting lots ammo and turning frowns up side down. I have one, it's has no reasonable or practical purpose to me, but it's fun when I shoot with it on rare occasions.

because that is the only situation where this could potentially be "dangerous".....and would require GROSS NEGLIGENCE on behalf of the shooter to acheive

Thats debatable, IMO.
Say someone fires and recoil is more than expected, barrel is therefore off target and pointed ________ ? The natural instinct is to release the trigger.

Anytime something goes wrong the gun the last thing you want to do is fire again, with a "release and fire" setup that could get difficult.

I don't think it's likely at all, but to say there's only one way it could cause a problem seems short sighted to me.

 

[Sav .250]

Seems to me that set up is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Sam1911]

Sam, I spent a total of 23 years of service in the army and 2 combat tours so I understand suppressive fire.

Ok, so then I imagine you do understand the two primary uses of automatic (or simulated automatic) fire.

I was more curious about the civilian market for these. My first blush opinion is, it seems pretty stupid and pointless, but that's to me. For someone else, might be the greatest thing to come along since pump actions ARs

Well, the civilian market would be the same as the military's uses, really. You could practice for area-saturation work, though larger and higher-capacity machine guns are more useful in that role.

Or you can train and practice high-speed multiple hits on targets in close range work. What had come to be called "CQB" by a lot of people.

That's what USPSA and IDPA are all about, and a huge part of 3-gun or 2-gun and other practical matches. And anyone who's practicing for home defense or other practical uses of a carbine would be interested in fastest hits on target.

Most fighting with a firearm takes place MUCH closer than several hundred yards away (often much closer than several DOZEN yards away) and at speeds much higher than even the traditional "rapid fire" section of a High-power match.

With some good training and/or practice, these high-rate triggers could be an asset.

 

[Sam1911]

also, to all you people claiming its "dangerous"........how exactly?

name one situation you have ever pulled the trigger, fired a shot....and then turned the muzzle to point at someone before you released the trigger?

because that is the only situation where this could potentially be "dangerous".....and would require GROSS NEGLIGENCE on behalf of the shooter to acheive

Just to be clear, it wouldn't need to be THAT grossly negligent. Turning around to muzzle your buddy would be an obvious breaking of several safety rules. But...

How about firing a shot and then moving off target to a more "high ready" position before releasing the trigger? Most of us would be off the trigger, riding the reset, so that second shot would have already gone. But many wouldn't. Especially a new shooter who's probably more likely to hold it down.

Even a few inches of muzzle lift from the aimed position would send that round over the berm and into the neighboring community.

So YES, there is a serious need to be very aware of what you're doing, and this would not be something to hand to a new shooter.

 

[Nature Boy]

That makes sense Sam. Being completely unfamiliar with 3 gun competitions, if it would serve a purpose for those events I get.

Or, if it's just for fun, I get that too.

Thanks