We know about exceeding 'max loads'. How about exceeding minimum loads?

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Captain*kirk

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So here's the thing...I have a Browning 1885 High Wall in .45-70 Gov't that for some reason, appears to love the Remington .405gr FN factory ammo, with a MV of 1330fps. I've duplicated this load with Hodgdon load data using 40.6 gr H4895 along with the 'no longer available' Remington .405 gr bullet. Let me add here, that I know this is a hell-for-stout action on a modern firearm and is capable of shooting much hotter reloads, which I have tried, going as high as near 1800 fps and all I get out of that exercise is more (wasted) burned powder, a black and blue shoulder, and resulting shorter shooting sessions. The stock round is a kitten compared to the hot loads, and groups way better. Less is more, right?
So, to my point; The powder I normally use (H4895) has become pretty much 'unobtanium'. I've had it on my 'Notify Me' lists for several years now. I have also been unable to find IMR4895, which has a similar burn rate. What I DID find, however, is that VihtaVouri N530 is nestled right between the Hodgdon and IMR 4895 burn rates, is readily available, and substantially cheaper. HOWEVER...
VihtaVouri lists a starting load as 49.6gr @ 1568fps with a 400gr bullet. Is it safe to assume it would give me close to 1330 at 40.6 gr and be safe to shoot at a lower than listed minimum velocity? Same case, same bullet, same primer. Just a different powder with a comparable burn rate.

EDIT: Having just read this thread, I am a little more concerned as these are exactly the type of issues I am concerned about....

Reduce Loads With Hodgdon H4895 by 60%

Have any of you tried the reduce loads with Hodgdon H4895? Hodgdon Powder Company has found that H4895 can be loaded to reduced levels. H4895 was chosen because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly in reduced charges. To create reduced loads, the 60% formula is...
www.thehighroad.org
 
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In most instances, it is safe to reduce loads right to the point of stuck bullets. In some cases, pressure and velocity will become erratic, sometimes dangerously so. And I suspect that data on most powders is kind of hard to come by.

When I have tried such things, I have proceeded very carefully, with a chronograph, and generally got what I was looking for. On a few occasions, though, things started to get hinky and I knocked it off, with that particular powder.
 
Captain*kirk said:
VihtaVouri lists a starting load as 49.6gr @ 1568fps with a 400gr bullet. Is it safe to assume it would give me close to 1330 at 40.6 gr and be safe to shoot at a lower than listed minimum velocity? Same case, same bullet, same primer. Just a different powder with a comparable burn rate.
Click to expand...
Call them and ask, but most powders are not recommended for reduced loads like H-4895.

AA-5744 will do what you want, if you can find some. The old SR-4759 will as well. I have some of both.
 
Captain*kirk said:
So here's the thing...I have a Browning 1885 High Wall in .45-70 Gov't that for some reason, appears to love the Remington .405gr FN factory ammo, with a MV of 1330fps. I've duplicated this load with Hodgdon load data using 40.6 gr H4895 along with the 'no longer available' Remington .405 gr bullet. Let me add here, that I know this is a hell-for-stout action on a modern firearm and is capable of shooting much hotter reloads, which I have tried, going as high as near 1800 fps and all I get out of that exercise is more (wasted) burned powder, a black and blue shoulder, and resulting shorter shooting sessions. The stock round is a kitten compared to the hot loads, and groups way better. Less is more, right?
So, to my point; The powder I normally use (H4895) has become pretty much 'unobtanium'. I've had it on my 'Notify Me' lists for several years now. I have also been unable to find IMR4895, which has a similar burn rate. What I DID find, however, is that VihtaVouri N530 is nestled right between the Hodgdon and IMR 4895 burn rates, is readily available, and substantially cheaper. HOWEVER...
VihtaVouri lists a starting load as 49.6gr @ 1568fps with a 400gr bullet. Is it safe to assume it would give me close to 1330 at 40.6 gr and be safe to shoot at a lower than listed minimum velocity? Same case, same bullet, same primer. Just a different powder with a comparable burn rate.

EDIT: Having just read this thread, I am a little more concerned as these are exactly the type of issues I am concerned about....

Reduce Loads With Hodgdon H4895 by 60%

Have any of you tried the reduce loads with Hodgdon H4895? Hodgdon Powder Company has found that H4895 can be loaded to reduced levels. H4895 was chosen because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly in reduced charges. To create reduced loads, the 60% formula is...
www.thehighroad.org
Click to expand...
Don’t rely on burn rate charts solely to choose a powder.
 
Imr-4227 gives the least velosity in my Lyman cast manual#4. It's noticeably less than the start load of imr4198. The faster the powder the more comfortable I would be with reducing it. Zero experience reducing vhit powders. The have loads for faster powders like n120 and you could check n110 or n105.
 
JFrank said:
Don’t rely on burn rate charts solely to choose a powder.
Click to expand...
If we don't rely on burn rate charts, then what can we rely on to craft a load if we can't get the powder we want to build the desired load?
As you are probably aware, Remington's factory load info is proprietary and the won't divulge their powder manufacturers or load, other than MV data.
 
AJC1 said:
Imr-4227 gives the least velosity in my Lyman cast manual#4. It's noticeably less than the start load of imr4198. The faster the powder the more comfortable I would be with reducing it. Zero experience reducing vhit powders. The have loads for faster powders like n120 and you could check n110 or n105.
Click to expand...
Sorry but I have zero experience with that powder.

With a 405gr jacketed bullet, Unique can be loaded down to 14gr for around 1200fps out of a modern High Wall. That was my gun; yours may be different.

This assumes three things, none of which may be true: the OP can find Unique; the OP can afford Unique; the OP’s rifle likes Unique.

My Miroku-made High Wall did but it was a long time ago and I don’t have any notes from then anymore.
 
Captain*kirk said:
If we don't rely on burn rate charts, then what can we rely on to craft a load if we can't get the powder we want to build the desired load?
Click to expand...
Use Burn Rate charts to identify powders that might provide performance similar to a powder that you "can't get". Then look for published loading data for the powders you identified.
 
Accurate 5744 or Shooters World Buffalo Rifle would be ideal for what you want.
I would personally try 3031, then 4227.

Generally speaking, the slower the powder the less "slap" you get in recoil; it changes to more of a "push", as the powder burns slower.
Also generally speaking, the older extruded powders respond well to reducing; especially the medium burn speed powders. This is why Hogdon says H4895 will reduce to 60%.
I have successfully reduced several other extruded powders, but this isn't the place to discuss what is a fairly advanced handloading technique.

As an observation: it shouldn't be surprising that the 45-70 is most accurate at what is essentially black-powder velocities. That is, after all, the speeds it was designed to shoot way back in the dim recesses of time.
 
Captain*kirk said:
If we don't rely on burn rate charts, then what can we rely on to craft a load if we can't get the powder we want to build the desired load?
Click to expand...

He said, “solely“ on the charts. Do some further investigation as you are not the first one to think about reduced rifle loads, you can follow in the footsteps of others that have “been there and done that”, vs blazing the trail yourself.

Like this one that came up after I googled “reduced rifle load powders”.


And more specifically 45-70 reduced loads.

Best powder for reduced 45-70 loads

First let me say I have always been a fan of the 45-70. But today at the range shooting the 330gr bullets at 1800+fps got old really quick. What powders work good for reduced loads in 45-70? I was afraid just using low charges of slow burning powder would give me lots of velocity swings with it...
castboolits.gunloads.com
 
Captain*kirk said:
If we don't rely on burn rate charts, then what can we rely on to craft a load if we can't get the powder we want to build the desired load?
As you are probably aware, Remington's factory load info is proprietary and the won't divulge their powder manufacturers or load, other than MV data.
Click to expand...
Burn rate charts are a bit of a hot topic ‘
You have to test a bit by starting low and work up to pressure noting changes on the target.

It’s interesting to try different powders that’s how we learn new things, just have to be safe while doing so.
 
At some point well before you stick any bullets you'll end up not sealing the chamber and you'll begin to see powder burns on the outside of the cases. When you get to that point you may also get some powder burning back in your face. So if you see any signs of powder on the outside of the case near the case mouth it's time to bump the charges back up until case seal and are safe again.
I've used IMR4198 for many decades, and find it's a wonderful powder for any of my large capacity old cartridge loading. It gives very low deviation spread, and has low chamber pressures also. Very accurate in all my old 1800's BPCR rifles, and good out to 1000 yds. if I do my part.
 
Jim Watson said:
There are even computer programs that will make up loads for you.
Click to expand...
Yes, and there are programs that will give you chamber pressures, and pressure curves if you enter the data. And most good programs will also tell you if a load is too light, or too hot. And will tell you if it's an accurate load. I use a ballistic program that does all that as many of my 1800's rifles have no load data, and it saves me a lot of trouble working up loads for obsolete cartridges.
 
Captain*kirk said:
VihtaVouri lists a starting load as 49.6gr @ 1568fps with a 400gr bullet. Is it safe to assume it would give me close to 1330 at 40.6 gr and be safe to shoot at a lower than listed minimum velocity? Same case, same bullet, same primer. Just a different powder with a comparable burn rate.
Click to expand...
I would not assume that it would be safe. The best thing to do is contact them and ask. That's a good bit under minimum.
 
I don’t want to discourage anyone from trying different brands of powder but if a desired bullet profile, weight and velocity is not listed using the contact information is a good next step. Ask if a particular load has been tested and if they will share the results. Most distributors will have contact information for the manufacturer.

I guess trusting the output of modeling software is okay but I write code for a living and know better. Trust but verify.
 
Captain*kirk said:
EDIT: Having just read this thread, I am a little more concerned as these are exactly the type of issues I am concerned about....

Reduce Loads With Hodgdon H4895 by 60%

Have any of you tried the reduce loads with Hodgdon H4895? Hodgdon Powder Company has found that H4895 can be loaded to reduced levels. H4895 was chosen because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly in reduced charges. To create reduced loads, the 60% formula is...
www.thehighroad.org
Click to expand...
If you follow good advice, (Hodgdon's fer ninstance) you should be O.K. However, Mess About...uhmm..."Experiment" on your own, a stuck boolit might be the least of your worries. Starting loads of common rifle powder should be completely safe, but very low charges of common, slow-burning rifle powders have been said to "detonate", disassembling firearms spectacularly. Many people have used larger charges of pistol powders, notably 2400 and Unique for lower-velocity cast and jacketed rifle bullet loads. There are others, but it seems to me there is more published data with the two I've mentioned. Good luck in your search!
 
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IWAC said:
If you follow good advice, (Hodgdon's fer ninstance) you should be O.K. However, Mess About...uhmm..."Experiment" on your own, a stuck boolit might be the least of your worries. Starting loads of common rifle powder should be completely safe, but very low charges of common, slow-burning rifle powders have been said to "detonate", disassembling firearms spectacularly. Many people have used larger charges of pistol powders, notably 2400 and Unique for lower-velocity cast and jacketed rifle bullet loads. There are others, but it seems to me there is more published data with the two I've mentioned. Good luck in your search!
Click to expand...
This makes perfect sense and echoes what I was concerned about from the start. I've always adhered to published load data and don't want to start playing Dr. Frankenstein now. I've also become quite attached to both eyes and the luxury of all my fingers so would like to keep things above board with reloading data.
 
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