Weapon Concealed in Car without Concealed License? Florida
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divemedic
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I still don't see where the snapped holster in plain view is illegal.
Because Florida Statute 790.053 makes it a second degree misdemeanor to have a weapon in the open:
(1) Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device.
Referring to Gutmacher, he states on page 84 that court cases have stated that the gun must be "securely encased," which a snapped holster would cover you for (as long as the handgun is not on your person, and is not in plain view) but that "not readily accessible for immediate use" would require that the firearm is stored in such a way as to significantly hinder its use. This would include that the firearm be unloaded, and no ammunition in close proximity (Ashley V State, 619 So2d 294 (Fla 1993)) On page 85, he recommends keeping the rifle or shotgun in a case, or if it MUST be in a gun rack, that the gun rack must be securely locked (and he says even then, you are likely to become a future case law case)
A complicated issue, and one in which there is a high probability that you will be arrested, and have to defend yourself in court for. I don't see why anyone would just not get a CCW and avoid all of the hassles.
Because Florida Statute 790.053 makes it a second degree misdemeanor to have a weapon in the open:
(1) Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device.
Referring to Gutmacher, he states on page 84 that court cases have stated that the gun must be "securely encased," which a snapped holster would cover you for (as long as the handgun is not on your person, and is not in plain view) but that "not readily accessible for immediate use" would require that the firearm is stored in such a way as to significantly hinder its use. This would include that the firearm be unloaded, and no ammunition in close proximity (Ashley V State, 619 So2d 294 (Fla 1993)) On page 85, he recommends keeping the rifle or shotgun in a case, or if it MUST be in a gun rack, that the gun rack must be securely locked (and he says even then, you are likely to become a future case law case)
A complicated issue, and one in which there is a high probability that you will be arrested, and have to defend yourself in court for. I don't see why anyone would just not get a CCW and avoid all of the hassles.
divemedic
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That's fine. I have had a CCW permit nearly as long as you have. I got mine in 1990. (I didn't know Florida had CCW in 1987, learn something every day)
I understand that Gutmacher is not God, but I use citations when express opinion, because I like to show that I am not simply making things up. If you want some insight here, read the case I cited. The guy in that one went to jail for open display of a firearm.
Here are a few cases to chew on:
Carpenter v. State, 593 So.2d 606 (Fla. 5th DCA 1992):
The defendant was stopped by the police. She had a handgun in the front seat beside her and she made no conscious effort to conceal it with her body. The grip and hammer were sticking up 6 inches above the level of the seat, and the police officer immediately recognized it as a handgun. The police did not initially see the gun when they first stopped the car. To be concealed a firearm need not be totally hidden from view or absolutely invisible to other persons. The question turns on whether an individual standing beside a vehicle in which a person with a firearm is seated would, by ordinary observation, know the object to be firearm. The appeals court concluded the gun was not concealed.
State v. Pollock, 600 So.2d 1313 (Fla. 3d DCA 1992):
Before being stopped by the police, the defendant ducked down in his seat two or three times. Upon making the stop, the officer looked inside the passenger seat and noticed the butt of a handgun protruding from the end of the seat. The officer placed the defendant under arrest for carrying a concealed firearm. The appeals court noted a two-fold test for a concealed weapon:1. It must be on or about the person; and Hidden from the ordinary sight of another person. The appeals court concluded that the defendant failed to present evidence on its sworn motion to dismiss that the weapon was situated so that it was within the ordinary sight of another person.
Ashley v. State, 619 So.2d 294 (Fla. 1993):
After being stopped, the police located a firearm and the ammunition for the weapon was discovered in the car. On these facts alone, the defendant was charged with carrying a concealed firearm. The Florida Supreme Court held that a firearm is not considered readily accessible for immediate use within the meaning 790.01(2) and 790.25(5) when no ammunition is found in the vehicle. However, is ammunition has been found in the vehicle whether the firearm was "readily accessible for immediate use" would have to be determined factually on a case-by-case basis.The appeals court ruled that an unloaded firearm located under the passenger's seat of a vehicle is readily accessible for immediate use when ammunition for that firearm is lying in open view on the passenger's seat. Under these facts a person may be convicted of carrying a concealed firearm.
I understand that Gutmacher is not God, but I use citations when express opinion, because I like to show that I am not simply making things up. If you want some insight here, read the case I cited. The guy in that one went to jail for open display of a firearm.
Here are a few cases to chew on:
Carpenter v. State, 593 So.2d 606 (Fla. 5th DCA 1992):
The defendant was stopped by the police. She had a handgun in the front seat beside her and she made no conscious effort to conceal it with her body. The grip and hammer were sticking up 6 inches above the level of the seat, and the police officer immediately recognized it as a handgun. The police did not initially see the gun when they first stopped the car. To be concealed a firearm need not be totally hidden from view or absolutely invisible to other persons. The question turns on whether an individual standing beside a vehicle in which a person with a firearm is seated would, by ordinary observation, know the object to be firearm. The appeals court concluded the gun was not concealed.
State v. Pollock, 600 So.2d 1313 (Fla. 3d DCA 1992):
Before being stopped by the police, the defendant ducked down in his seat two or three times. Upon making the stop, the officer looked inside the passenger seat and noticed the butt of a handgun protruding from the end of the seat. The officer placed the defendant under arrest for carrying a concealed firearm. The appeals court noted a two-fold test for a concealed weapon:1. It must be on or about the person; and Hidden from the ordinary sight of another person. The appeals court concluded that the defendant failed to present evidence on its sworn motion to dismiss that the weapon was situated so that it was within the ordinary sight of another person.
Ashley v. State, 619 So.2d 294 (Fla. 1993):
After being stopped, the police located a firearm and the ammunition for the weapon was discovered in the car. On these facts alone, the defendant was charged with carrying a concealed firearm. The Florida Supreme Court held that a firearm is not considered readily accessible for immediate use within the meaning 790.01(2) and 790.25(5) when no ammunition is found in the vehicle. However, is ammunition has been found in the vehicle whether the firearm was "readily accessible for immediate use" would have to be determined factually on a case-by-case basis.The appeals court ruled that an unloaded firearm located under the passenger's seat of a vehicle is readily accessible for immediate use when ammunition for that firearm is lying in open view on the passenger's seat. Under these facts a person may be convicted of carrying a concealed firearm.
HOME DEPOT GEORGE
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Now am I correct to assume that if I have a CCW which I do I can have a handgun anywhere within reach as long as it's covered by a towel or something on the seat next to me.
divemedic
Member
That is the law, yes.
I live in florida, So let me get this right I do not have to use 2 steps to get to my gun for it to be legal.
Example, I have my gun in the glove box, and in a holster.
I can have my gun under my seat concealed in an holster. Wouldnt that be only one step to access the firearm? I ask for clarification because LEO's have told me 2 steps like example given, and others say just a holster?
Example, I have my gun in the glove box, and in a holster.
I can have my gun under my seat concealed in an holster. Wouldnt that be only one step to access the firearm? I ask for clarification because LEO's have told me 2 steps like example given, and others say just a holster?
I get something new each time I read it.
LEO's don't alwaysMedWheeler
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Divemedic, gun racks are legal, as long as they have only long guns on them, or no guns at all. As the law states, nothing contained within it shall restrict the possession of a rifle or shotgun in a motor vehicle (I'm paraphrasing here, but it is the case..)
MedWheeler
Member
TriGun, forget about the old "two-step" myth that has somehow failed to die here in Florida. There has not been such a law. The law in Florida, as it applies to persons NOT licensed to carry a concealed firearm, only requires that a handgun within a motor vehicle be "securely encased". That only means that it must be in some type of container that must be opened to access it. You are not required to have it in a holster if it is also encased within the glovebox.
As previously posted, even a closed pizza box would meet the requirement of the law, as would a zippered bank bag, shoebox, or a typical pistol carrying case.
As I understand it, since the law requires that it be concealed simply by the definition of "securely encased", I would not use any type of holster that exposes any part of the gun. If you can touch any part of the gun without opening the container in which it is carried, it is not "securely encased" as per the requirement of the law. Play it safe, and keep it "securely encased", or get your carry license..
As a former LEO myself, I will be among those who tell you we do not always know the law. As a staunch 2A supporter, I made sure I did.
If you're stuck on "two steps", make them these: 1) open the container, and, 2) grab the handgun.
As previously posted, even a closed pizza box would meet the requirement of the law, as would a zippered bank bag, shoebox, or a typical pistol carrying case.
As I understand it, since the law requires that it be concealed simply by the definition of "securely encased", I would not use any type of holster that exposes any part of the gun. If you can touch any part of the gun without opening the container in which it is carried, it is not "securely encased" as per the requirement of the law. Play it safe, and keep it "securely encased", or get your carry license..
As a former LEO myself, I will be among those who tell you we do not always know the law. As a staunch 2A supporter, I made sure I did.
If you're stuck on "two steps", make them these: 1) open the container, and, 2) grab the handgun.
numaone
Member
I would interpret it to say if you can pull the trigger, it is not "securely encased." A snapped holster in the passenger seat would meet the securely encased requirement.
I am still confused on the long arms requirement in Florida. I don't think my CCW has anything to do with that, so I'll leave it out.
790.25
but then it goes on to say
To me, non CCW holders could have a concealed holster that is snapped.
But can I carry my AR loaded and ready to go on the center console? Much like the police used to carry the shotguns. In plain sight, and immediately accessible?
Thanks
divemedic
Member
1 A gun rack is legal. Open display of a firearm is not. Show me where the law exempts you from the prohibition against open carry found in 790.053.
2 When you refer to "As the law states, nothing contained within it shall restrict the possession of a rifle or shotgun in a motor vehicle " you are referring to the possession of a firearm in your vehicle, and not the law against open carry. The law you paraphrased (790.25(5)) does not protect you from prosecution for a violation of 790.053.
3 Again, I strongly suggest that anyone here that is interested in the subject read Gutmacher's book. It has a pretty good explaination of the issues and laws at hand.
brboyer
Member
Dive...
Carefully read 790.53:
Here is the 'otherwise provided by law':
Also, perhaps you should take your own advise and read pages 84-85 in Gutmacher's book (Sixth Edition) "
HOME DEPOT GEORGE
Member
Trimore if it's available in your area by all means do the electronic fingerprints at the local sheriffs office it will speed up the process.
divemedic
Member
Actually, 790.25(5) does not authorize open carry. Read the law again. The first line says "it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance"
divemedic
Member
Buried? Where does that statute authorize the weapon to be in the open?
divemedic
Member
Huh? What is all this about? How does quoting old music and repeating "you lose" prove anything? Or are you just trying to get the thread locked?
mustang_steve
Member
I went on a google-fest over this for about a month...
To sum it up, OC is illegal in FL. Google up the "NAA Belt Buckle" for their 22lr mini-revolver. Basically, if anyone can see that buckle, at any time, it's OC. That killed that idea...I think the NAA buckles were pretty neat.
To carry out an about (outside of castle doctrine and expected places for firearms...range, etc) in FL, a CCL is required, and it must remain concealed. Thus the fun part of carrying...accessible without any chance of accidental "flashing".
To sum it up, OC is illegal in FL. Google up the "NAA Belt Buckle" for their 22lr mini-revolver. Basically, if anyone can see that buckle, at any time, it's OC. That killed that idea...I think the NAA buckles were pretty neat.
To carry out an about (outside of castle doctrine and expected places for firearms...range, etc) in FL, a CCL is required, and it must remain concealed. Thus the fun part of carrying...accessible without any chance of accidental "flashing".
divemedic
Member
Ok, you are sooo clever, we will read the law that 'speaks for itself.'
(5) POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.--Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as provided in s. 776.012.
That seems to me to be saying that you can carry a firearm anywhere in a vehicle, as long as it is CONCEALED and NOT ON YOUR PERSON. If the clause that comes later: (Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use.) allowed you to place a firearm in the vehicle in full public view, then why include the word 'concealed' in the statue at all, only to countermand it within the same paragraph? Words mean things, and each word must be considered when reading a law. We cannot ignore a word that is there, simply because we wish things to be.
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MedWheeler
Member
DiveMedic, my last regarding long guns (gun racks, etc.) being permitted in plain view while in a motor vehicle was correct (post 41.) You were assuming for some reason that I was trying to say that the general open carry of a long gun was legal. That's another issue, one I did not address. But, having a long gun in view in a motor vehicle, such as in a gun rack, does not constitute in itself the prohibited act of "open carrying" of a firearm.
I was trying to stay on thread-topic (firearms in motor vehicles.) If the thread deviated, I missed where that happened..
I was trying to stay on thread-topic (firearms in motor vehicles.) If the thread deviated, I missed where that happened..
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gideon_70
Member
This is not correct. The statute reads:
790.25
(l) A person traveling by private conveyance when the weapon is securely encased or in a public conveyance when the weapon is securely encased and not in the person's manual possession;
And:
790.001
(17) "Securely encased" means in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; or in a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover to be opened for access.
So, as long as it is in a snap holster and can be seen, then it is legal and not concealed. If it is in the glove box, it is legal, holstered or not. And in a closed box or container could be the center console box as long as it has a lid.
Lastly, 790.25:
(4) CONSTRUCTION.--This act shall be liberally construed to carry out the declaration of policy herein and in favor of the constitutional right to keep and bear arms for lawful purposes. This act is supplemental and additional to existing rights to bear arms now guaranteed by law and decisions of the courts of Florida, and nothing herein shall impair or diminish any of such rights. This act shall supersede any law, ordinance, or regulation in conflict herewith.
A gun doesn't have to be loaded to put you on the wrong side of this law.
Read the statute. You violate it if you possess a firearm within 1000 feet of a school unless your case falls within one of the exceptions listed in the statute. One of those exceptions says you're OK if you have a permit issued by the state in which the school is located (providing the state does a background check). Note that having a permit to carry a pistol doesn't let you carry a rifle that you don't have a permit for. Another says you're OK if you're on private property, like your home or workplace. Another lets you carry an unloaded gun in a locked container. And there are some others.
If you have a gun within 1000' of a school, and you're not within one of the statutory exceptions, you have violated the law. It doesn't matter what Florida law says: this is Federal.
swinokur
Member
I have a VA non resident CHP. They conduct a very thorough background check including fingerprinting. Not every county in VA requires fingerprinting, however to get a non resident CHP, you MUST be fingerprinted.
That won't do you any good except in VA, because the permit in question has to be issued by the state in which the school is located.
This is a very dumb law, in lots of ways. This is one of them: drive past a school in your own state, with a permit from that state, and you're OK; drive past a school in a different state which recognizes your permit, and you're a felon. Drive past a school carrying a loaded pistol, for which you have a permit from the right state, and you're OK; drive past the same school with an unloaded rifle on the back seat and you're a felon, because you don't have a permit to carry the rifle and it's not in a locked case.
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