Webley Fans -- Have You Heard about This?

Dave DeLaurant

Dave DeLaurant

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India is a fascinating place in many ways, including manufactured goods. For example, the mid-1950s British Morris Oxford III was cloned and produced in India as the Hindustan Ambassador from 1957 to 2014 -- they were particularly popular for use there as taxicabs.

Probably less well-known has been the continued production of the Webley Mk IV revolver. Indian Ordnance Factory has produced a .32 S&W Long version for the small domestic market, generally referred to as the IOF .32 Revolver, since the mid-1990s. It's based on the Singapore Police model , which incorporates a safety in the frame behind the hammer. Retail is 84700 Rupees, or a little over $1K US.

dc810bc3bf1fb55ee9924f2acb3e5e47.jpg

https://ddpdoo.gov.in/product/products/product-details/0-32-revolver-mk---iii

My guess would be that IOF had made other versions of the Mk IV for military and police use prior to this, but don't quote me.

Then, sometime in 2021, Webley & Scott India began their own early series production of the Mk IV in .32 S&W Long, in direct competition with IOF.

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https://webleyscott.in/collections/revolvers/products/mkiv-32-overhand-pocket-revolver

I don't have much reliable information about what is going on with this revolver, but Jonathan Ferguson at Royal Armouries was able to provide some of the backstory:

As to the new Webleys I was aware of them but hadn’t been following the story so thanks for that. As to Webley India, no link to IOF that I’m aware of – it’s the current UK owner of the brand (Fuller Group) having products teaming up with an Uttar Pradesh-based firm called Sial to build a new Webley factory

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/70-years-after-independence-england-s-webley-and-scott-to-make-guns-in-india-for-civilians/story-GQ1GNWkGP1hc2wuvx5ZQaJ.html

They were having to go to IOF to get them proofed and clearly weren’t happy about that - https://nenow.in/popular-stories/we...ans-in-india-second-hand-trade-to-be-hit.html

So I am pretty sure that this arrangement is in direct competition to IOF – the choice of .32 is a coincidence dictated by Indian firearms legislation and the choice of type is due to colonial legacy, effectively. That’s my take until I can compare the two together – I hope Webley’s version is nicer than what I’ve seen of IOF’s!

In any case I’m glad that the brand is still British-owned (albeit the continuity with the original company is long gone) and is making revolvers again, albeit not within the Commonwealth.

So, FWIW, a couple of variations on the classic Webley Mk IV are still being produced in real factories.

That is in addition to onesie-twosie production in the shops of Darra Adam Khel in Pakistan, of course.

https://silahreport.com/2017/12/20/made-in-darra-webley-and-scott-32-sw-long/

DSC_0470.jpg

Cool, huh?
 
I stumbled across those on the internet when I initially began my research into centerfire calibers greater than .25 acp. I was quickly intrigued as I love top breaks, and quickly dismayed at how difficult it looks to be to get my hands on one.

If someone did import them I would be front of the line to get one.

Thanks for sharing what you found. It was an interesting read.




 
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Yes, I had heard of these, because I bought an Indian Ordnance Factory Browning High Power copy some years ago, and looked into their other products at the time. Besides the Webley 32 copy, they also make a 32 ACP pistol called the Ashani. It is a mash-up of the FN 1910 (recoil spring wrapped around the barrel and retained by a muzzle bushing) and Colt 1903 (fired by internal hammer). I would very much like one of those, too, despite the fact that it's a dinosaur compared to a Ruger LCP. Here's a 3 minute disasembly video:



Or if you Google ashani pistol, you can find lots of pictures. Apparently in India, customizing the Ashani is as popular as customizing 1911's in the US. The grips on the example in the video are aftermarket, for instance. It may be polished or re-finished as well.
 
I would like one. I would have to get set up to reload .32 S&W Long. Darn! Another cartridge to learn about…:D

I found an interesting article on these guns. Apparently the idea is to import here in the USA at some point. The proposed price is a bit high for my taste. $1300
https://shootingindustry.com/first-look/first-webley-scott-mk-iv-revolvers-produced-in-india/

I keep hearing my Indian friends voice in my head saying “Whatever you do, never buy anything made of metal that’s made in India. You will regret it soon after.” He’s a senior mechanical engineer at one of my former employers in CA.
I might have to make a decision one day in this regard. ;)
 
Pat Riot said:
I would like one. I would have to get set up to reload .32 S&W Long. Darn! Another cartridge to learn about…:D

I found an interesting article on these guns. Apparently the idea is to import here in the USA at some point. The proposed price is a bit high for my taste. $1300
https://shootingindustry.com/first-look/first-webley-scott-mk-iv-revolvers-produced-in-india/

I keep hearing my Indian friends voice in my head saying “Whatever you do, never buy anything made of metal that’s made in India. You will regret it soon after.” He’s a senior mechanical engineer at one of my former employers in CA.
I might have to make a decision one day in this regard. ;)
Click to expand...

I certainly can’t speak to the metallurgy of these pistols made in India, but the same was said of Spanish steel in the Fifties and Turkish steel at the beginning of this century. So, entirely possible that India is catching up.

Not sure I understand though. Are the Webley & Scott revolvers made in India anything to do with Webley & Scott in the UK?
 
Pat Riot said:
I keep hearing my Indian friends voice in my head saying “Whatever you do, never buy anything made of metal that’s made in India. You will regret it soon after.”
Click to expand...

Is this like my electronics man telling me "Do not buy anything made in Korea with moving parts? Radio or TV is ok, but not VCR." Which shows how long ago that was.
 
Jim Watson said:
Is this like my electronics man telling me "Do not buy anything made in Korea with moving parts? Radio or TV is ok, but not VCR." Which shows how long ago that was.
Click to expand...
This was about 10 years ago. I must say that I have been seeing Indian knifes, hatchets and swords at the gun shows around me and they look very well made as opposed to Indian blades I encountered just a few years ago. I have no idea if the metal is good or bad, but appearance wise that all look great.
 
We will never see these imported.

The market is not there for a $1300 Indian-made revolver firing an obscure caliber.

I doubt they’d sell a hundred of them here, and in no way shape or form could they or would they ever recoup their import invest costs.
 
JCooperfan1911 said:
The market is not there for a $1300 Indian-made revolver firing an obscure caliber.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that this MSRP is for the Indian domestic market, a closed ecosystem that has no direct relation to pricing anywhere else.

It is also a very small market but since we don't see a lot of newly-made firearms from India in the USA, there may be other factors at work that make export difficult or unprofitable. I have my doubts about ever seeing one here.

The .32 Long chambering is also an Indian legal artifact.
 
It can't be labor or factory overhead. If Eastern Europe can make sub $500 1911 and BHP I'd think India could do a Webley for under $500.

If you can't go up to a 38spl then maybe 22lr or 22mag? I'd be very interested at $500.
 
P89DCSS said:
It can't be labor or factory overhead. If Eastern Europe can make sub $500 1911 and BHP I'd think India could do a Webley for under $500.

If you can't go up to a 38spl then maybe 22lr or 22mag? I'd be very interested at $500.
Click to expand...

This is the "Civil Products" page of the Indian Ordnance Factory website: https://ddpdoo.gov.in/product/products/category/civil-trade---arms-details

They make an S&W styled 22 rimfire revolver in two styles, and apparently they make 5 different styles of the 32 revolver, and 3 different versions of the 32 automatic. Most of the differences seem cosmetic, but one version of the automatic might have an external cocking piece for the hammer. Also some bolt action rifles and pump action shotguns. Maybe India has more people that can afford guns these days and want to have some. I have a vague idea that India ended the import of civilian firearms 45 or 50 years ago, and that the IOF has a monopoly on firearms manufacture there.
 
Thread title caught my eye as I would be interested if someone was making new versions of the MK IV (in the original .38/200) and MK VI. I've always wanted a minty MK VI in .455...

Pat Riot said:
I keep hearing my Indian friends voice in my head saying “Whatever you do, never buy anything made of metal that’s made in India. You will regret it soon after.”
Click to expand...
I dunno here, there have been some decent blades coming out of India; I've got a couple nice repro swords, proof-tested and great fit/finish, nice steel, made in India.
 
Today I was at the Colorado Gun Collector Association show and a saw 3 nice condition, Made in England Webleys in 38 S&W for $800 asking price. Had me thinking....
 
I load 32 S&W Long already. Not sure about off shore manufacture but a Smith would have my money if they built one. I really like the cartridge. But then I'm not a large demographic for sales volume.
 
India has historically not been an arms exporter due to their lack of a local arms industry (a legacy of the British.) They don’t have much of a local market either because Indian gun laws are extremely restrictive.

I suspect that the $1000+ price point is accurate… most of that being the cost of compliance and an inefficient production process. (When you have almost no competition…)

I would not be holding my breath to see these on the US market, unfortunately.

This being the 21st century, it’s not that the Indians cannot produce good steel, it’s that, as in many emerging economies, there’s a strong motivation to economize on something that won’t be obvious and won’t likely cost anyone on the factory floor a thing (and may well earn someone a promotion for cost savings.)
 
I remember the ads for that last run of Mk IVs, shoulda got one.
There was an English ballistic theory of those days that held that a heavy low velocity bullet was good because it excited the resonant frequency of the rib cage. Yes, they wanted to beat their enemy like a drum.
 
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