Weighing the Risks of Armed Defense

[Deanimator]

Telling someone that not having a gun means that they will be attacked (paraphrasing here), is basically calling them stupid, and is not a good way to get someone to carry.

Not having a gun doesn't mean that you'll be attacked. Not having a gun means that if you ARE attacked, you will be at a disadvantage; if you're a 110lb. woman attacked by a 210lb. man, probably a fatal disadvantage. I have a strict policy of not trusting in the decency or sanity of people who attack me with deadly force. I also have a strict policy of not trusting my 51 year old body to fight off a 20 year old body, whether weapons are involved or not.

People have every right to decide to either not defend themselves from attack or not to defend themselves effectively. They should however be honest about what they're doing and the likely consequences thereof.

 

[dmazur]

I know the analogy has been used before --

Think insurance policy. There's a cost involved, and many people elect to not carry insurance (unless the government makes them...) The cost can be crippling for certain events for the uninsured. The insurance companies make money because, generally, the odds are in your favor that you will never need that policy. And, it's too late to apply for insurance after the fact.

CCW, in my mind, is similar. There is a cost involved in acquiring a gun, then there's training (in many states) and licensing fees. Practice costs both money and time. There's the "social cost" that CCW is not generally acceptable. You will probably never use that gun for defense, so it's hard to justify these expenses. Similar to insurance, however, you may not be able to decide you need a gun after the fact...

I remember an Ohio state representative (I think) who was strongly anti-CCW, until he got mugged walking back to his car from a meeting. Amazingly, he admitted he was wrong and is now a strong CCW supporter.

I think many of us who have made the decision in favor of CCW hope that those who think it is an incorrect decision don't have to pay for it with an injury or loss of life...however, it is their personal decision and I won't condemn anyone for taking that path.

 

[benEzra]

I think the risk is great, but statistically, I think children are more likely to drown in a pool than shoot themselves. (cite: Freakonomics)

You are correct. I believe for children 14 and under, the risk of them drowning in a pool are about 100 times the risk of them dying from a gun accident, on a per-owning-household basis.

Gun accidents rank last or near last among causes of accidental death. Two or three times as many people die in bicycle accidents as gun accidents annually, yet we don't consider bicycles in the home to pose a grave risk.

The difference in perception comes from the way that the one-or-two-in-a-million accidents are reported. When a child is killed in a bicycle accident, it almost never makes national news, but a child gun-accident story almost always does.

 

[Tirod]

samadams brings up a good point. Most folks with a CCW don't ever get into a confrontation. The risks of owning, storing, and using a firearm may actually exceed the risk of being victimized. Of course, the risk of being in a traffic accident goes up because you own and use a car. And the risk of cutting the toe off your work boots goes up if you use a chain saw.

I've got some great looking rips in a pair of double knee carhart jeans, too. Never cut the skin. Yet. I'm thinking chaps are not such a dumb idea.

Experience and gathering safe habits makes concealed carry work. Just like the first fender bender, you learn from your mistakes. Fortunately, the rules of firearms handling are focused on a very high level of safety. It's why so few children are involved in those kinds of tragic incidents. Unlike automobiles and swimming pools, we take firearms very seriously - and the unfortunate results are that kids are killed more often in the care of their parents driving cars, or "out playing in the back yard." There is a reason for car seats, not talking on the cell phone EVER while driving, and fencing your pool with child proof gates.

Locking up all your ammo, and keeping any loaded gun locked up, will prevent most of those oops opportunities. And when the kids ask to look at them, show them. It defuses the curiosity.

Sure, carry has risk, just like having unprotected sex. How, where, and with whom you participate can make an extreme difference in yours and their continued good health. It also has consequences which we are obligated to study and manage. It's called beng responsible.

It's the irresponsible people that we prepare for.

 

[Leanwolf]

" Quote:
I'm starting to think the OP is a troll.

DMAZURE - Maybe not. I read a (liberal) opinion once that essentially said that person would rather be killed in a robbery than have to bear the guilt of having taken a human life."

I agree with DMAZURE. I doubt that the OP is a "troll." He brings up some legitimate things to consider if one is going to carry a handgun for self defense.

As for those who say "they'd rather be killed or terribly injured than to have to bear the guilt of taking a human life," I have spoken with several people (professional writers) who state that very sentiment... and two whom I know also have stated they accept the "philosophy of non-violence no matter what happens to them," as postulated by the late M. Ghandi, and Martin L. King. They claim they'd rather die than harm anyone.

Of course, these people have NEVER had to face that terrible situation, so, in my opinion, it is easy to say they would never harm a vicious, attacking criminal, indulging in the abstract philosophy of "non-violence."

It is quite another thing to suddenly in real time, find themselves faced by a criminal(s) who'd as soon kill or horribly injure them as to look at them... and never even think twice about doing it.

As for carrying a firearm for self defense, I am of the school of "If I ever need it, it's with me." I don't depend on odds to protect me and mine. (And I have needed it.)

FWIW.

L.W.

 

[Dwight45]

Sam, I have a friend who grew up in Paris. He and his wife have let the kids drink wine at the table in moderate amounts, as they do in France, since they were small. When one of their boy's friends went on a drinking binge one day, their son was the only one who knew when to stop.
I'd bet it works the same way with guns. I think if you take the kids to the range and let them enjoy shooting, as well as teach them gun-saftey, they'll be much less likely of doing something stupid with the guns later.
As for carrying a gun in a safe area, I think that might be a bit overly cautious. A lot of John Waynes on these forums think they'll live forever as long as they wear a holstered pistol to bed. It's the enemiies within our own bodies that will take the great majority of us in the end.

 

[samadams]

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[samadams]

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[samadams]

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[samadams]

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[samadams]

Sorry to abandon my post. The holidays have cut into my THR time (I hope they have for each of you as well!).

My first take-away from your posts are that I need more time to feel confident with my concealed weapon. I do trust myself, but having experience while hunting, or on the range is different than on your hip in a non-shooting situation. I think I need to spend more time using quality equipment that I can trust to get more comfortable with carry.

Secondly, several of you have suggested training the members of my family on firearm use & safety. I can not agree more. Not only is this a smart idea -- but it is a great activity for the entire family. This process is well underway, but by no means finished (repeat, repeat, repeat).

More theoretical: One of the things that MostlyHarmless said was: "Human nature is such that we tend to ascribe more risk to unlikely things and less risk to likely things than we should." I re-read this statement several times. I think it really describes the heart of the issue because IN MY CIRCUMSTANCE, I have to ask which are the "more unlikely things" -- needing a handgun, or the risk of a handgun. I can flip-flop those issues on either side of this statement.

My OP was not intended to "troll". I have been reading the posts on this site for sometime and have come to respect the opinion of many of the members. I hoped that my question might generate some thoughtful discussion.

Lastly, I would never suggest that the decisions that are right for my family/situation are appropriate for each of you. I'm very pro-gun and feel that it is exclusively up to each of you to determine how to exercise that right for our family's safety. Each of you have responsibly come to your own decisions. I wanted to discuss how you got there.

Thanks for the lively debate. I do thank each of you for your comments.

 

[Andy-Y]

Not having a gun doesn't mean that you'll be attacked. Not having a gun means that if you ARE attacked, you will be at a disadvantage; if you're a 110lb. woman attacked by a 210lb. man, probably a fatal disadvantage. I have a strict policy of not trusting in the decency or sanity of people who attack me with deadly force.

Just to clarify, I completely agree with you. I carry every day, everywhere I go (unless there are metal detectors). People are F-ing crazy, I see it every day (I work with the homeless). I have seen people stabbed over the most trivial things. I will NOT be a victim. So as far as that's concerned, I think we are on the same page.

People have every right to decide to either not defend themselves from attack or not to defend themselves effectively. They should however be honest about what they're doing and the likely consequences thereof.

And here again you are absolutely right. All I was trying to say in my post was "you get more flies with honey than vinegar". When people say, "If you don't carry everyday, then your family will end up dead", they might be right. However, there are better ways of saying it. Maybe, "Well on the off chance that you are attacked when you are unarmed, how will you deal with it?" or "I understand your concern, but you should think twice before you compromise in the area of personal safety". BTW, I usually use the "Insurance" model when I debate CCW with non-gunnies.

Anyway, no offense intended, just my 2 cents. Sometimes the "shock" value works on some folks, other people it turns off totally.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

What about a loaded handgun in the house. I've never had a home invasion situation. In 40+ years, never need a gun within 30 seconds. The risk of having a loaded handgun (with kids in the home) are great. How do you weight those risks? Thanks for any insight you can provide on how you deal with this issue.

I weigh those risks like this...

Carry 24/7/365 or don't carry at all... Loaded guns in the home, I have 11 loaded guns and 2 kids (one is 16 years, the other is 22 months old).

My 45 never leaves my side. The others are out of reach of the young one, the teenager is well schooled in firearms safety (by me) and is a firm believer that gun control is hitting what you aim at.

In a nutshell...educate the kids and start early, don't hide it from them.

There is no risk involved with loaded guns in the home as long as you do your part and educate the kids as soon as they are capable of learning...if they don't want to learn it, then you have to keep the loaded guns to a minimum and keep that one on you at all times.

A loaded gun in the home is not a safety concern at all...but a loaded gun left laying on the nightstand is an accident waiting for a place to happen.

 

[deaconkharma]

one thing I noticed after I chose to carry

I noticed I try to find ways to avoid using. For example more planning on where I am, where I am going, how I park, where I park, etc. Also I feel that if the situation ever arose that I had to draw and use...
A) I let someone get way to close (a failure on my part in situational awareness and avoidance)
B) I failed to always leave myself an EXIT
there are a few more but you get the idea, I see having to use it as either a breakdown of my other more primary defensive skills or really bad luck. The firearm is my last line of defense when there is no other. Definitely carry if you are comfortable carrying but hone-hone-hone the skills that will help you avoid using the firearm. IF those skills fail to avert your use of the firearm then the last thing you will be worried about is legal liability.

Carrying made me more serious about avoiding it's use. Strange how that works isn't it? Thats why most of us are incredibly furious when people try to paint us with "gunslinger" and other stereotypes. Most of us that carry are more serious about avoiding using the firearm once we take on the responsibility to carry. It is completely the opposite of the antigunner's ideas and thus the TRUE reason blood doesn't flow in the streets when a state goes pro carry.

 

[loneviking]

Well, there's a risk alright. A gun is a tool and like any tool, malfunctions can occur and injure you. It rarely happens, and the benefit of having a very good tool for self-defense outweighs the risk for me. I've been injured through an AD, and I'm still carrying. I don't use the type of holster that failed on me, and I won't carry a semi-auto without at least two safeties. I prefer to carry a revolver where I can very easily feel the hammer. If the hammer is down, the gun is safe---and it should be as I carry in a good, quality leather holster that completely protects the trigger guard.

I'd suggest that you go slow, maybe start with a small revolver such as S&W Model 66. .357 caliber, very concealable with adjustable sights. Find a local shooting club such as IDPA, which gives you practice in drawing your loaded weapon and firing on the move. These skills need to be practiced as they are what you will need to survive a gunfight.

Consider--how many guns do you need? For a lot of years, I only had one revolver and it was usually with me. Combine that with educating any curious youngsters as to how a gun works by taking them to the range may solve the concerns about the home. I have two grown daughters and a 10 y/old son and have never had a problem with several loaded guns in the house.

If you do carry IWB, make darn sure you get a rigid holster that covers the trigger guard. I'd highly suggest that you only carry a gun with at least two safeties such as the XD's or the 1911 style. If one safety fails, you have one safety still on.

Are the risks worth it? Get comfortable with carrying and I think you'll find the answer to be 'yes'!

 

[MyRoad]

I had my own thoughts years ago when I first got my CCW, about the possible liability of carrying. My concerns were of a different type. I did some research, contacted local LEO, and found out what the most common crimes were, and what the most likely bad situation I might find myself in would be. It turned out that in terms of "muggings" (which were pretty rare), most were done by unarmed or non-gun armed (i.e. knife, or pipe, or brass knuckles, etc.) teen-ager/20-something gang banger-types.

At that time the common M.O. was three guys; one is coming towards you, two are behind you. The one coming towards you "sucker punches" you in the stomach, the two behind grab your arms/wrists. They take their wallet, watch, cell phone, etc. Or they would just corner someone, two guys would hold the victim and the other would pat him down and take anything of value. In either case, they are going to control your arms/hands first thing -- and the whole thing was over in seconds. In these situations, if my "situational awareness" failed me and they got the jump on me, it would happen so fast that my fear was that these guys would leave with my gun. I saw them arriving without a gun and leaving with mine as a major liability. [The only parts of town where crimes like these would occur that I might be in, were at night, near the train station, or in parking garages.]

The other type of robbery is an armed robbery, up close. The LEO said this was very rare (in that city), and in no case in his memory/long career had the BG actually fired. They just took the money and ran. So, either they get "the draw" on you, or they come up from behind you and put a gun to your head. Again, the possibility of having them take my wallet and my gun seemed to out weigh the possibility of my shooting them without getting shot first myself.

Yes, I have been mugged by two armed guys on a bicycle while out for a walk. What a terrifing feeling to look down the barrel of .38 with no means of self defense. I have carried ever since.

chuckusaret -- I'm curious, two armed guys pointing guns at you, could you really draw and drop them both before one of them shot you? You left unharmed, I can't help but think this could have ended much worse if you had a gun and drew it.

Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, I'm not some liberal troll, I carry 24/7. I just think realistically about what really happens on the street, and its not like in the movies. I've often wondered that judging the situation in the moment, if a guy pulled a gun on me and said "give me your wallet", and my sense was that he was going to take it and run, I would probably hand him my wallet. 99.99% chance he would just leave the scene. Would I pretend to go for my wallet, and go for my gun? Only if I could see down the pipe and he didn't have a bullet in the chamber, or I had time to notice if the safety was still on. Otherwise, I'm not dieing for my wallet. If I thought there was any chance that he would get my gun, I'd have to do my best to shoot him. So, I would escalate my chances of dieing for my gun, but not for my wallet. That creates the possibility that the gun, in that situation, becomes a liability.

There are a handful of situations in which a carry gun could be a liability (the topic of this thread), but obviously hundreds of others in which is could be valuable. For me the usefulness outweighs the danger, which is why I carry.

 

[makarovnik]

Just having a CPL can be used against you by the cops.

Some poop-heads also like to publish names of CPL holders in the newspaper or on web sites to cause problems for you.

I also recommend you don't tell anybody you carry a weapon unless you have to. My God I even try not to get into arguments with people about 2nd amendment rights. I've found it's just not worth it. I support the 2nd amendment by joining the NRA.

 

[donkee]

I'm 42 now. I started shooting when I was 11. My Grandfather taught me. Since I started shooting the number of times my guns have gone off accidentally is 1 time. I was out trap shooting with my Uncle's 12ga Stevens bolt action (don't laugh, he left it to me and I can regulary put down 23 out of 25 with it). I pulled the trigger forgetting to take off the safety, pointing down range, I pushed the safety forward and BOOM! Pointed downrange, everything was fine. Took it into the gunsmith, hasn't been a problem since.


They are not playthings, you don't fiddle with them unless cleaning, preparing them to carry, or actually shooting. Well, you do have to show them off, but keep the 4 rules in mind.

Are you this worried about your abilities when driving, cooking, working with power tools, etc?

If not, then why would you be in a constant state of worry when you have a handgun on you?

I have had two incidents where having a firearm would have come in handy. The first was a guy coming in through the bathroom window when I was sleeping on the couch. He opened the window and started coming through. Being a light sleeper in those days, I grabbed my 12 gauge from under the couch (the house had been broken into a few times before, so I kept one handy when I was home) turned on the dining room light, racked a round into the chamber and told him to go back the way he came, RIGHT NOW! He backed out of the window and took off. Never had another break in after that one. Even the cars were left alone after that. Prior to that night, they were broken into regulary.

The second, was before MI was a shall issue state. My ex was driving us home after going to the hospital to see our preemie. It was around midnight and we ran into a truck load of drunks that started messing with us. It turned into a chase through the streets of Flint. There were 5 guys in the pickup. My ex was quite a looker so who knows what was on their minds. My back was out so I could barely walk let alone fight with anyone. We did get lucky that we lost them. V8 Chevy Nova vs 4 banger pickup, but the car did have problems with stalling due to a bad fuel filter. So if we did end up stalling out, it would have been a tall order for me to do anything about it. It was just the two of us on empty streets late at night.

This last incident was over 14 years ago and I have not found myself in a position where having a firearm would have been necessary. I still carry almost everytime I leave the house. I hope I never need it, but will be glad to have it if I do.

The thing is, I put on my belt, add a holster, insert firearm into holster, and then pretty much forget about it..............

 

[Deanimator]

I noticed I try to find ways to avoid using.

I find that the best ways to avoid shooting (or hitting) people are:

1. Avoid stupid people. Unnecessary contact with stupid people probably kills more people than liquor, cigarettes and dubious women combined. Stupid people like to do stupid things and they love for other people to do those stupid things with them, whether it be drinking and driving, using and selling drugs, fighting for no good reason, or capriciously using deadly force. At BEST stupid people bore me. Generally, they annoy me mightily. I avoid them at all costs.

2. Avoid the places where stupid people congregate. This primarily means bars. I don't completely avoid drinking establishments, but I certainly avoid bars where people get drunk and fight.

3. Pay attention to "feelings". If people and places don't feel "right", they probably aren't. I'd rather miss out on knowing "exciting" people if it also means I miss out on ending up dead or in jail.

 

[DarkSoldier]

Back to the original post...

It seems to me you have serious questions about whether carrying for Self Defense is right for you (as opposed to whether it is right for anyone) and you appear to be seeking to answer those questions.

My thought would be that there are a couple of questions that should be answered prior to any concerns about problems inherent in carrying the gun itself.

The first question to address in deciding whether to carry a gun for SD is, "Am I willing (physically able and mentally prepared) to use a firearm in the reasonable, lawful, and legitimate defense of my life or the lives of my family, knowing that my actions may result in the death of another human being?"

If you can honestly answer "yes" to that question, then ask yourself the follow-up question, " Do I honestly believe that once I have been forced to take a life in the reasonable, lawful, and legitimate application of self defense, will I be able to live with it."

Once you have given serious thought to these questions and can honestly answer both of them in the affirmative then you can move on to the other concerns you addressed.

It is very important to honestly think about these things before your life takes a side-trip into one of those dark places. I've known some good (LEO) people who were forced to use lawful, appropriate deadly force in the line of duty and survived the initial encounter only to have their lives ruined by the emotional afterburn.

Deciding that you cannot or will not take a life doesn't mean you are a bad person or a so called "sheep". It may mean only that you have given a lot more honest thought to who you really are than many who will criticize you for your decision.

That decision may change for you as your life situation changes. For instance, when I was a young cop, my first wife was a cute little blond headed hippie chic who flat told me she would never touch a gun and would never take the life of another human being regardless of the circumstances or the danger to herself.

Shortly after the birth of our child, I asked her to rethink her position. I pointed out that, if a situation were now to arise, after she nobly died for her convictions, there would be no one left to protect her child from the criminal who she allowed to murder her. Afer a few days of serious thought, she told me that her responsibility for our child over rode her personal concerns. She answered those two above referenced serious questions appropriately and we began going to the range regularly, where she mastered her S&W Model 19 Snub.

And as to the statistical likelihood of ever needing to have a gun, I will offer you this thought. I do not smoke, never worked around radiation or dangerous chemicals, and I have spent my entire life keeping myself as physically fit as possible. According to statistics it's not likely that I would develop cancer. But I did! I'm four years post treatment as I write this. So much for depending on the laws of probability.

Consider any advice you get that is not reckless, unlawful, or irresponsible. Learn yourself, master yourself, then you will be properly equipped to learn the rest of it.

Not the gospel, just my thoughts...

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier