Welcome to the new "Normal" another ammo thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
As a general observation to the direction of the comments, you might consider this, prices are not coming down, and frankly the anecdotal "the guy at walmart, or my LGS" said this or said that, isn't worth jack, the best indicators for you average Joes would be checking on availability from the big time internet whole sellers such ammotogo.com, and sgammo.com.

Both are always, or nearly always, completely wiped clean of 9mm, and have been since Sandy Hook. If they are out, you are not going to be getting lucky anytime soon.
 
Prices are rising, because they've been artificially held down by Walmart, ironically for the express purpose of getting us used to higher prices (I'm convinced). If they and their suppliers had done the free-market thing, and raised prices in accordance with demand, we'd have seen a supply shock, price spike, market freeze, return of inventories, price reduction, and finally market stabilization (after several iterations) back to pre-crises levels, adjusted for material cost changes. Instead, our modern integrated-supply chain scheme has made it very easy for companies and their suppliers to manipulate markets in the name of stabilization, at the expense of the end-consumer

They agreed to hold prices roughly where they were. Shortages ensued. Then rationing, which never fails to spark even more alarm. Panic ensued. People got in the habit of buying any ammo, whenever they could. Back orders stack up, guaranteeing a stable demand for manufactures to work towards for the foreseeable future. After sustained supply shock, consumers gradually become more and more desperate, increasing their tolerance to higher retail prices, which are inflexible downward if applied gradually.

I agree with your position that Wal-Mart is artificially holding down prices, but I personally don't think it is the huge conspiracy your suggest. What you suggest is price fixing, a federal crime under the Sherman Anti Trust Act. Could Wal-Mart and ammo manufacturers be price fixing? I suppose. It is certainly possible, but probable? in the current political climate (anti gun / ammo fever getting the gun grabbers all riled up, and vitriolic Wal-Mart hatred at an all time high, particularly with the current administration) it would be incredibly stupid. Almost inconceivably stupid. Talk about painting a bullseye on your back. But there are more and more stupid people out there these days it seems. We are becoming the movie Idiocracy, I'm afraid.

The other way to look at is in consideration of the fact that Wal-Mart is everyone's favorite whipping boy. They may be holding prices down to avoid creating massive backlash, from people who don't understand how supply and demand works. The squeaky wheel gets greased, as they say. A lot of gas stations did the same thing when gas prices first spiked in 2005, for similar reasons. They reduced their margins to the bare minimum because they didn't want to deal with hate and discontent (that comes directly from some of the owners of these stations in my locale).

Market levels? Thats what you are getting from gunbroker. You know the ones people are calling gougers, scalpers and flippers. You are seeing the market price for ammo right there, live for all to see. That's what you want?

Well, whether you like it or not, that is already happening. Wal-Mart is holding prices artificially low, and a lot of people know it. How else to do explain the people camping out at Wal-Mart every morning (it is still happening at mine), to buy 3 boxes almost right off the truck and flip it with a markup? They are doing it because they can, and according to my local WM, they say it is the same 50 to 100 people doing it and the vast majority are retirees, so they have time to do such things. People are paying the marked up prices.


Now, I went into my local WM and was shocked to find actual boxes of ammo there in calibers I was looking for (.30-30, .223/5.56). Pretty much all they've had since December is .300 WSM and .22 Mag. And my favorite local gun shop, as of last month, actually had about 100 boxes of ammo in ALL calibers in stock (his shelves were still near empty, but he had on average a few boxes in every caliber). This is a big improvement over zero, but still a way off.


Retailers may think they can set prices, but in reality they cannot. Buyers set the price. People who think something is too expensive ought not to be buyers. If they say the price is too high--but buy anyway--then their actions speak more loudly than their words.

To be blunt: If you bought it, then the price was not too high.

What we have to be careful about now is waiting so long to return to the retail ammo market that sellers lose track of pent-up demand. There are lots of people who would not pay the silly prices of the last nine months and, even if they are starting to feel a shortage in their personal inventory, have still not bought ammo in that space of time.

The other effect I can understand first hand: individuals stocking up so they don't get caught high and dry again. I'm not talking about hoarding, but I ran out of several calibers in this last shortage, and I will take steps to ensure that doesn't happen again next time there is another panic. I'm not the only one who thinks this way, and I'm betting it will lead to the shortage lasting longer than it otherwise would have.
 
I don't buy into any theory that Walmart is keeping prices artificially low. In my many, many years of negotiating contracts with Walmart(not firearms related) I have always found them to be straight up with regards to their pricing. If they are able to obtain a lower price from another supplier they will still honor their contract with me. If we have a market condition that causes prices to go down then Walmart, unlike the other national chains I have dealt with, always LOWERS THEIR PRICE. If they consistently see lower prices in a competitor then they will be after you but that rarely happens because their volume is so large and their distribution is done in-house.

I have put this in another post but here goes.

I am in the commodity business so we see crazy price swings on a regular basis. Lettuce has been more than double the normal price for this time of year. Last year apples were a bad deal with very low availability and high prices. Our contracts include clauses that allow us to raise our price when the average USDA price hits a certain level and Walmart never balks at that. They also force us to go down when markets get low and Walmart will reflect these changes in their retail price.

We are obligated to give Walmart a certain amount of product at a certain price. If they need/want MORE than our contract then we can give it to them at the contract price, offer them a market price, or just flat out refuse. I have sat in an office in Bentonville and told VPs of procurement that I don't want the extra business.

As much as we all hate shopping in Walmart(mine is horrible for CS) IN MY EXPERIENCE they have always been fair on the purchasing end. They are very tough and savvy and will put you out of business if you aren't smart. Check out Vlasic pickles. They offered Walmart an incredibly low price on some products several years back and Walmart sold the product at retail for prices lower than the other retailers could even buy the product. Other major chains booted Vlasic out of their stores and eventually Vlasic went bankrupt or were bought out to avoid bankruptcy. Many people blamed Walmart for this but in reality it was Vlasic that made the dumb mistake of not limiting the volumes and selling one store at a price much lower than they could offer to other chains.

I think Walmart is contracted with Winchester to purchase a certain number of boxes based on their anticipated volumes and the panic sent those numbers skyrocketing. Winchester is not going to give Walmart a lot of extra cases at the contract prices(or any price maybe)so Walmart runs out. They are not going to raise their prices to slow down sales. While this is a great talking point and it causes you and I considerable consternation I don't think it is any great issue for Walmart in Bentonville because 99% of their shoppers aren't looking at ammo. Toilet tissue or milk would be another issue. The guys at the local store are probably tired of it but the guy in Bentonville is working on buying dove decoys cheaper from China. Ammo is a tiny percentage of their sales and I don't see them being all that worried about it. When the next round of contracts comes around, and I have no idea what the cycle is, we will see more increases in Walmart.
 
The scalpers are alive and well> I hope they rot in hell! We sponsor a junior rifle team program at our rifle club and ammo from the same outfit at Camp Perry went up 83% this year over last year and that was outrageous as well. I hope these people starve later.
There is more to this than supply and demand. There is gouging going on and I hope they all pay dearly when this is over. I know that I will never buy from that company again.
 
I don't buy into any theory that Walmart is keeping prices artificially low.
Neither do I.

I guess it depends on which side of the glass you're looking from?
Is Walmart artificially holding prices down, or are others artificially inflating them?

If Walmart is holding them down, then my local small gun shop is doubly guilty, as his prices on much of his ammo (particularly 223) are cheaper than Walmart.
 
Walmart does not artificially hold prices - they have a standard % of gross margin they want and they price according to that. If their ammo prices have stayed the same, it is because they are still paying the same wholesale price; however they are not pricing their retail sales to reflect the current market supply/demand issue
 
"The other effect I can understand first hand: individuals stocking up so they don't get caught high and dry again. I'm not talking about hoarding, but I ran out of several calibers in this last shortage, and I will take steps to ensure that doesn't happen again next time there is another panic. I'm not the only one who thinks this way, and I'm betting it will lead to the shortage lasting longer than it otherwise would have."

This, exactly.
I frequently stop by the local Wal-Mart on my way to work in the morning (it takes minutes, not hours) in the hope of aquiring a 3-box ration of .223, 7.62, one of the common handgun calibers, or .22 at a reasonable price. I'm not scalping it or reselling it in any way but adding it to my meager stash in the hope of building up some kind of supply against the next panic. There are no lines or hordes of hungry scalpers circling the ammo case in the morning and yet the case is almost always cleaned out of the calibers I've mentioned above. I think many people have decided the prudent thing to do is accumulate what they can, when they can.
 
Walmart does not artificially hold prices - they have a standard % of gross margin they want and they price according to that. If their ammo prices have stayed the same, it is because they are still paying the same wholesale price; however they are not pricing their retail sales to reflect the current market supply/demand issue

I had not considered that, but you are probably right about that; it may go back to the wholesalers/manufacturers.

I think many people have decided the prudent thing to do is accumulate what they can, when they can.

Yep, as I said, that's my plan too.

A few hours ago I visited a gunshop 30 minutes from my home that, before the panic, had a very broad selection of ammo, even relatively oddball stuff (like .38 S&W and .32 Long as examples) at excellent prices (competitive with WM). A few months ago, they still had a decent selection, though the stock was thin and they had gone up on their prices some. Today, they were almost completely wiped out and while the prices were still fair compared to other sources in the area, they aren't the standout they were.

So where I live, the shortage (especially in reloading components like powder and primers) is still very much ongoing. :(
 
JrDollal,
Sounds like I see another produce man in the house??? Thought I was the only one to be silly enough to make my living doing that..
 
I asked Natchezss customer service dude today if the panic was subsiding any. He said,"Well, its not getting worse", which I took to mean, "the panic is ongoing".




Side note: Isn't it about time for the "definition of gouging" argument again?
 
Some of you have missed the point, others have not.

The fact is retail prices are on the rise. The reason(s) behind the the increase really doesn't matter. If you can buy it before prices go up why not buy it now as long as you are not putting it on a credit card.

Yes everything else is on the rise as well. Have you been to the grocery store or the gas station lately? The difference between these commodities and ammo is that you can store a lot of ammo for a long time at no cost. Buying ammo when we know that forces will push it up further in the future is just smart, either to shoot it at a later date or sell it, at a profit, when the inevitable shortages happen again.

Yes, I said inevitable, because I believe they are inevitable. Here are some of the reasons.
1.) Another mass shooting will put more pressure on politicians to enact more gun/ammo control legislation. Unfortunately there will be more of these attrocities and no, of course I do not want this to happen, but it will.

2.) If, as predicted, Hilary Clinton runs for president and wins, the house and the Senate will almost certainly be controlled by the dems as well. I believe this because Hillary will most certainly bring out every liberal and weak republicans will lose their seats. I do not want to turn this into a political debate so just look at what happened before and immediately after Obama was elected.

3.) Any pending treaties with the anti gun UN.

The last thing I will say is that I hope I am wrong but I doubt it. Local gun dealers in my area have limited supplies at inflated prices mostly because they can't get any through their distributors. The larger stores like Dick's, Cabela's and Kittery trading post also have limited supplies also at inflated prices. As I mentioned before, prices are on the rise at Wal-Mart, so I am convinced that higher prices are here to stay.
 
"I asked Natchezss customer service dude today if the panic was subsiding any. He said,"Well, its not getting worse", which I took to mean, "the panic is ongoing"."

Studies show the average gun-sumer is 2% more rational this week than last :D. How do we define a 'panic,' BTW?

TCB
 
On the good news front. Remington has announced that they are opening a new ammo plant in Arkansas. I believe that the exec said within the next year and one half to be in production.
 
Well, good news is that Wolf 7.62x39 is back, and prices are lower than pre-panic prices. Hollowpoints are the same price as FMJ, too, at $5.60 a box on AIM. FYI, the Wolf hollowpoints are designed to function in the same way as military 5.45x39. That is, the tip collapses unevenly rather than expanding and induces extreme tumbling which will likely do MORE damage than a normal hollow or soft-point.

This pretty well displays the nastiness I speak of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmITztFRL-g
 
People said the same thing about the last shortage. It wasn't true then. It probably won't be true now. I was actually buying bricks of .22 cheaper in 2011 than I did in 2008 before the election. It was quite a bit cheaper in fact. I bought a lot for either $11 a brick or $12 a brick. It was either Winchester or Blazer usually with some Federal. I'm not talking a short brick with 325 or 333 rounds either. I'm talking 500 or 525 or 550 rounds. .45 ammo went up then came back down lower than what it was too for some types of ammo.

Prices have gone up more this time but that doesn't mean they won't come down again. Some ammo never went up nearly as much this time like 7.62 x 39. It got up to $10 a box for 20 rounds in a lot of places in 2008-2009. I've not seen it get anywhere near that level this time around. .380 disappeared completely in 2009. It hasn't done that this time. It might be expensive but I've seen it around sometimes. I bought some not that long ago.

I didn't read the whole thread, But I agree with the OP that prices will never go back down to the old levels due to factors like inflation, poor economy (low value of the dollar), etc.

We can never expect brass 9mm to go below $10/50rds again. If it does I will personally give one box to the person who predicts it correctly. :D

Some ammo don't get affected much, like 7.62x39, 54R, 5.45, 12ga, etc. But the most common calibers are the ones that continue to go up and will most likely never come back down. Lets revisit this topic in 1-2 years (granted there isn't another mass shooting!) and see if ammo would really go back down to pre-panic prices...


* As a standard, we have to use one retailer's price for comparison. i.e. Walmart had 9mm for $9.47/50rds in 2011, its now about $14-15. etc.
 
I just have to ask how you are getting ahold of cases of 9mm.
I stockpiled ammo since Bill Clinton was elected, I was never one of those to run down to the shop and buy a box kind of guys, if you get my meaning. GB proves everyone who says things are easing wrong, I put a case up for auction and its gone in three days, every time!

I just checked ammotogo.com, and sgammo.com, both are wiped clean of 9mm, and that's the true measure, if their out, prices are not coming down anytime soon.

In my opinion, the price of ammo is never coming down again, many factors contributing to the new normal, one of which is high level manipulation by government agencies.
 
GB proves everyone who says things are easing wrong
THe only ammo on GB I've ever paid attention to is .22LR and that ammo seems to be selling for less than it was, and more and more of it with high starting bids is going unsold. IMO the activity on GB proves that the ammo situation is starting to ease. Certainly not saying the "panic" is over, but the worst seems to have passed.

I just checked ammotogo.com, and sgammo.com, both are wiped clean of 9mm, and that's the true measure, if their out, prices are not coming down anytime soon.
Try checking the ammunition tracking sites like gunbot.net and you will find that 9mm ammo is widely available online. Individual vendors are still not able to keep large amounts in stock, but you can find it somewhere. I've been able to buy several hundred rounds of 124gr 9mm FMJ in the last month online for $16-17/50. Pricier JHP self defence rounds are also getting easier to find.

In my opinion, the price of ammo is never coming down again, many factors contributing to the new normal, one of which is high level manipulation by government agencies.
Impossible as long as the cost to manufacture does not increase dramatically. If supply did remain as tight and prices as high as they currently are, someone would eventually add new production capacity, causing availability to increase and retail price to decrease. The only reason no one has done that so far is that the ammo manufacturers remain convinced this is still just a temporary spike in the market, not a permanent increase in demand. I don't doubt that onces price finally do stabalize again, they will be moderatly higher than last year, but they will certainly not stay at the current "third party/GB/gun show" levels forever.
 
I've been guilty of being a mule at Wal Mart a couple times for my ammo challenged friends but we have never had to be there in line at 5am. and through the magic of the internet there has always been a full haul when we have gone. Now I do have some friends in other locals who have said the lines form early at their stores so I do believe it happens. I don't fall for the WalMart price conspiracy and believe that when this all evens out WalMart's prices will be right in line with what they have always been when compared to other retailers. They just have so much more of a volume advantage and sell so many more goods that the price of ammo in their "big picture" isn't any different than that of a box of crackers.
 
Inflationary pressures are hitting the US economy on just about every front with exception of oil (due to domestic production), but a bad huricane season in the Gulf of Mexico (where most domestic oil is refined) can change that very quickly.

Many manufacturer's have been sucking up the price increased through the recession, in order to keep their customers and save their businesses. But you can only do that for so long.

The Fed is threatening to back off on the quantitative easing, which is going to dry up the easy money, and the fiscal conservatives are going to continue to use the debt ceiling to keep a lid on Federal Government spending.

Managing inflation is tricky business, and people who remember the Carter days, know that 18% interest rates were once a very real part of life.

Inflation getting out of control is a very significant threat to the US economy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top