Well this is frustrating... .308 not fitting in case gauge.

[redcon1]

A comparitor should be used to compare fired brass to resized brass. It measures head to datum. You dont want to push the shoulder back more then needed, with a SB die.
An auto loaders fired brass may be larger then tne chamber. If action opens a little to soon?

I use a home made comparitor

View attachment 1048010

That's pretty slick. I'll have to try that. As far as small base dies go, you can adjust them just like a regular FLS die to bump the shoulder back as much or as little as you like. I'm sizing some 7.62 NATO right now with Forster SB dies and I I'm in total control of the shoulder bump while I'm still getting the benefit of the SB die on the body of the case where this lake city brass needs it. using the Hornady comparator, I have sized my cases to fit a 1.621'" chamber down to 1.616". I could go to 1.618 if I wanted to but I'm loading for multiple gas guns and I just hate to cut it that close having previously experienced cases stuck in my chamber like the OP is describing. I'm experimenting with this Forster Case lube to see if I can get this thick stretched out machine gun fired brass to size more consistently than with one shot or Imperial and, so far, I feel like I am. I think maybe it's better. With the imperial sizing wax I would have to double pump cases occasionally to get them where I needed them and that's not good so I sized 20 of these and got them all within .002 and most of them were within .001" or on the money. The ones that were out of spec were over resized slightly but I would prefer that to having them end up under resized and then maybe springing back a little and then getting stuck when the chamber gets hot and filthy. I like to look at these cases in my JP gage too just to see if they would fit in any 7.62 chamber and these are very very close to fitting the gage perfectly. they may be .001"-.002" proud but I'm confident they will chamber in any of the four 7.62 semi-auto rifles that I personally own and most any other 7.62 MBR. Note the same case does not stand proud in a LE Wilson case gauge. In the past, I used to bump them back to 1.615" because I really really REALLY hate getting a case stuck in my chamber. It's embarrassing so I'm very curious to see if this lube gives me better control over this process and holds them all to where I set them with one pump and little variation. For now, I think it does. And so, to finalize my point, I resized some of the same brass with the SB die adjusted out to 1.618" and still got the benefit of the SB resizing on the body while now only bumping that shoulder back about .003" to .004" which some would consider optimum for an AR10 type rifle.

 

[Blue68f100]

I find that annealing MG fired brass allows for easier sizing. You will have a lot of excess length to trim off, >0.015". If this is the case, expect case head separation, on the first firing for some. Remember to take a clean brush with you so you can extract the head from the chamber.

When you try the base end first I always push down and twist, you want about 1/4" to go it. If you get that much it will pass the case gauge.

I don't like moving the shoulder back excessively since it shortens brass life., 0.002"-0.003" is all that is needed for a simi auto gun.

 

[243winxb]

expect case head separation

new PSA AR10,

I would STOP right here & buy new factory fresh brass.

A case head separation is something you never want to happen in an auto loader.

 

[someguy2800]

I've reloaded a lot of .223 for various AR15s without any issues. Maybe I just got lucky. Maybe the 308 is more notorious for this. Either way, I'm grateful to this forum for (most likely) figuring out the issue.

Redding SB die is already ordered.

In my experience it’s usually not a problem loading ammo going into an AR15 since they usually have chambers on the large side of the tolerance for reliable feeding, but it can be a problem using brass that was fired in an AR15 and loading it to go in a bolt action. I had a Savage 223 with both a factory and a criterion barrel that wouldn’t chamber any case that had gone through my AR15 without going through the small base die first. Military surplus brass was even worse. Presumably some of it had been shot in an M249

 

[Walkalong]

I had some (2nd batch) Greek HXP range brass that I assumed was once fired from a Garand at matches at our gun club, maybe not, but a lot of it would not gauge using my RCBS FL sizer, so I bought a SB RCBS FL sizer, still no joy, so I scrapped them. Almost all of the first batch sized down just fine.

 

[redcon1]

I would STOP right here & buy new factory fresh brass.

A case head separation is something you never want to happen in an auto loader.

Maybe if there was reason to believe it wasn't truly once fired brass.
I have reloaded thousands of Lake City 7.62 which I assume is what the OP is using. I have generally erred on the side of too much resizing as opposed to too little. I originally just followed the instructions that came with the die so you know that was too much. I have had one case head separation and it was in an FN FAL, not an AR10 and it was probably over gassed to some extent and it was on the 4th loading including the initial firing. I have also had one case stuck in the chamber of an AR10. Both experiences were educational with regards to setting headspace. Neither event led to any significant problems.
So we suspect that this brass was beat up in the first firing and now we're firing it out of another semi-automatic rifle which is beating it up some more as Semi-auto extraction is not a gentle process be it rotating bolt, tilting bolt or roller bolt. It raises the question, how much of a beating can these cases take? I got 4 loads out of that brass and I was almost certainly bumping the shoulder back more than the .003"-.004" that is frequently recommended. Could I get more reloads if I diligently kept that headspace at .003"? Maybe. But I feel it would come at the cost of reliability so all that being said, I probably wouldn't pitch a pile of once fired Lake City brass because a couple of cases were too beaucoup.

On the other hand, if every case was doing this, I'd pitch it which is, sadly, what I had to do with a pile of 300 win mag brass that had been fired out of US military sniper rifles when it couldn't be resized down to fit my chamber thanks to that useless belt going around the body even after buying the Larry Willis die that was supposed to fix just this sort of a problem.

 

[MEHavey]

Read & Heed the following discourse(s)
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/m1a-brass-life-non-max-loads.821411
http://www.m14.ca/reloading/14_loading.pdf -- The bible (small 'b')

Some bottom Lines
- Small-base resize unknown/surplus military brass -- once. Thereafter sized normally for your rifle
- Full-Length resize for gas guns as a default for reliability, and toss after 5 firings.

- Alternative for the true GasGunGurus only
--1. Carefully establish true headspace dimensions for that rifle,
--2. Use comparator to size coupla-thou less (cross-checked between comparator and whatever you use as rifle headspace gauge)
--3. Lightly lube (or leave residual lube) cases for firing
--4. Check/trim growth every resizing to calibrate stretch
--5. Inspect every 5-6 Firings (paperclip) depending on what you see in #4 above

 

[GravelRider]

Thanks for all the replies.

Surely case head separation can't be such a big issue as to throw out the ammo, can it? I've reloaded thousands of once fired military brass without any issue (none of it .308, until now though), and there seems to be a big market for it. Should we expect to throw out any cases that a FL die can't resize? And if that's the case, are SB dies just an accident waiting to happen?

 

[The Glockodile]

A few times on the AR, then to the bolt gun they go...

 

[redcon1]

Read & Heed the following discourse(s)
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/m1a-brass-life-non-max-loads.821411
http://www.m14.ca/reloading/14_loading.pdf -- The bible (small 'b')

Some bottom Lines
- Small-base size unknown/surplus military brass -- once. Thereafter sized normally for your rifle
- Full-Length resize for gas guns as a default for reliability, and toss after 5 firings.

- Alternative for the true GasGunGurus only
--1. Carefully establish true headspace dimensions for that rifle,
--2. Use comparator to size coupla-thou less (cross-checked between comparator and whatever you use as rifle headspace gauge)
--3. Lightly lube (or leave residual lube) cases for firing
--4. Check/trim growth every resizing to calibrate stretch
--5. Inspect every 5-6 Firings (paperclip) depending on what you see in #4 above

That THR thread is worth adding to your bookmarks and I did in fact. Excellent thread there.

 

[243winxb]

What brand of brass? LC? Head stamp marking. Nato?

 

[GravelRider]

The brass is all WMA, mixed years, mostly 16-20. No correlation between year and brass not sizing correctly.

Headstamp is WMA / circled + / year

No mention of 7.62x51 vs 308, but all is primer crimped.

 

[film495]

I'd think to test quick, even a piece of paper folded over and stuck under the case in the shell holder might work, like was previously mentioned. did the OP say it was about 20% failure rate? you might just chuck those in the recycle bin and move on - if the other ones size and work correctly, just go with the ones that work - and cull the ones that fail quality control.

 

[243winxb]

Wait and see if the small base die makes a difference.

Case separation- Using a comparator, i would measure head to datum on at least 10 different case headstamps that have not been sized, just as received.
Then measure head to datum of brass fired in your AR. May be interesting to know the difference.

I tried sizing a 308 Win brass with a 45 acp carbide die & a 30-06 fl die. Just to see how far down they would size. Not enough. Sized diameter .469"

Shoot some factory ammo, measure before and after firing. Reload the empty brass. https://www.midwayusa.com/762x51mm-nato/br?cid=21340

 

[jmorris]

Maybe if there was reason to believe it wasn't truly once fired brass.

I would rather have brass fired a dozen times, sized and fired for and from the same barrel than once fired brass from some firearms.

One can tell a lot by the amount that needs to be trimmed from cases after sizing but almost never provided information.

When I am going through brass, fired from bottleneck machineguns, it’s not uncommon to find some that are all over the place. On belt fed stuff like 1919’s headspace changes from dirty/clean and not everyone checks headspace/timing everytime before the go shooting, thus the output changes, from the same gun, add in a bunch of them and things don’t get any better.

If you are really sloppy and never check, you are most likely to be a guy that sells his “once fired brass”, he wouldn’t want to reload himself because of their irregularity. If the evidence is already gone, like already sized and trimmed, I would be even more suspect.

What unsuspecting buyers think is an advantage, already processed brass, is really just a tactic to hide the condition of the brass.

 

[redcon1]

I would rather have brass fired a dozen times, sized and fired for and from the same barrel than once fired brass from some firearms.
One can tell a lot by the amount that needs to be trimmed from cases after sizing but almost never provided information.

Yeah, it isn't the best brass for reloading period but it does work and in lean times such as this, you about have to start thinking about how best to approach it which is what makes this thread pretty worthwhile right now IMO because you just know there are lots of people out there struggling with this stuff right now. I remember when I seriously got into reloading without anymore guidance from my mentors, it was during the Obama panic and brass was mighty scarce and I had to figure this Lake City stuff out because that was all I could get and I got a lot of it. That's also when I bought the MilSurp 300 win mag brass that I ended up having to pitch because I just couldn't get the body sized down for my chamber because of the belt which forever soured me on belted cases. live and learn.

Regarding the trimming you mentioned, that's a good point but I find that I ALWAYS end up having to trim the heck out of LC once fired 7.62 cases but only after the first time I full length resize them. I just think they get so stretched out in the MG chamber that when you resize them, you're flowing a significant amount of brass up into the neck and that brass probably comes from the body and adds to the case wall thinning problems and it certainly makes trimming a pain in the rear. That's my theory anyways. On subsequent passes through the sizing die, I don't even really have to trim them. The trimming is especially brutal if you're doing it with a Forster original case trimmer I can tell you that (or any similar hand cranked trimmer I'm sure) so I ultimately went to the Giraud tri-way cutter which made short work of that job and then I bought a case prep center for the case uniforming bits. luckily all my brass came swaged so I didn't have to mess with that but I have the Dillon swager and the case prep center if the need arises.
So yeah, it ain't the best brass but it works and I gather that some people do real well with it. That link that meHavey just posted was pretty informative about this issue too. Slamfire's post about lubricating cases is extremely interesting and I'll definitely be reading more about that as it applies to case head separations, case wall thinning, etc

 

[jmorris]

Regarding the trimming you mentioned, that's a good point but I find that I ALWAYS end up having to trim the heck out of LC once fired 7.62 cases…

Yep, that’s what I was talking about. Fact of life playing with some things.

I made a little attachment for my runout fixture that allows me to non-destructively measure case wall thickness and scrap it if wall thickness from base to shoulder ever goes down then back up. If the firearm is really off, the case can be ruined upon its first firing.



Cut away showing internal contact bearing. Zero indicator and just slide on/off cases.



Some people use a paper clip to try and feel a notch in the case, that’s a little more open to interpretation or at least up to the individual, tool and feel. The indicator method above can show any thinning, before it gets bad enough to be able to feel it by hand.

 

[redcon1]

Yep, that’s what I was talking about. Fact of life playing with some things.

I made a little attachment for my runout fixture that allows me to non-destructively measure case wall thickness and scrap it if wall thickness from base to shoulder ever goes down then back up. If the firearm is really off, the case can be ruined upon its first firing.

View attachment 1048256

Cut away showing internal contact bearing. Zero indicator and just slide on/off cases.

View attachment 1048255

Some people use a paper clip to try and feel a notch in the case, that’s a little more open to interpretation or at least up to the individual, tool and feel. The indicator method above can show any thinning, before it gets bad enough to be able to feel it by hand.

View attachment 1048261

That looks much more useful than a bent paper clip. I definitely need such a thing.

 

[Fooey]

I reloaded some test rounds of 308, and at the range one got stuck in the chamber, requiring me to take it back home to my bench to get it unstuck. I stopped with the test firing and bought a Sheridan case gauge, which I just got in the mail.

As I suspected, the case didn't fit in the case gauge. I then went and checked the rest of my rounds, and 20% of the finished test rounds wouldn't fit. So, I grabbed a few of the resized brass and tested them, and same thing; about 20% of them just won't fit in the case gauge.

My Lyman turret press had snapped the main turret bolt during resizing this lot, so I figured that probably had something to do with it. In the meantime, I upgraded to a Redding T7.

The first thing I did was resize a few pieces of the previously resized brass that didn't fit in the case gauge again in the new Redding press. They still didn't fit. I double checked die adjustments, resized again, and same thing. I then over-adjusted until it cammed over, but the resized brass still won't fit in the case gauge. The resized brass looks like any other piece of brass I've resized. Nothing looks off.

View attachment 1047964

View attachment 1047965

I flipped the case upside down just to make sure it wasn't the rim, and the rim will fit into the top of the case gauge, so that doesn't look likely.

View attachment 1047966

The brass is all once fired, ordered online. I sorted it all by headstamp manufacturer (WMA), though I did not sort years. Most of the brass is '16-'20. There does not appear to be any correlation between year and not fitting in the case gauge. The brass was all trimmed to 2.005" after resizing, and was then chamfered and deburred and tumbled overnight.

Dies used are RCBS sizing and bullet seating and a Lee factory crimp die. The cases were lubed with One Shot. The cases all resized with a normal amount of effort.

I've never had any issues like this before, and I'm quite stumped at what is going on.

I can safely rule out any issues past the resizing stage, since the unloaded cases aren't fitting.

So what in the hell is going on here???

I ran into this exact same problem and after a couple weeks thinking about it I found I was using a shell holder from a different manufacturer than the resizing die .
It was thicker and didn't allow the die to resize the last few thousands of an inch. Use the shell holder that came with the die and then drop into your case gauge. Good luck.

 

[Nature Boy]

The brass is all WMA, mixed years, mostly 16-20. No correlation between year and brass not sizing correctly.

Headstamp is WMA / circled + / year.

In my experience, WMA (Winchester) is the softest of the NATO brass varieties. First to have primer pockets get loose. First to show signs of case head separation. And this is with new brass fired in my rifles. Buying once fired almost assures it was shot out of an M240, which puts it on the ragged edge of usability.

I’d pull what you have made, pop the primers out and toss it all in the scrap bucket. When it comes to this brass, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze

 

[packetloss]

Do yourself a favor and order some fresh brass and skip the SB die.
Just a thought

That's not the answer if there is an issue with his dies.

 

[JFrank]

That's not the answer if there is an issue with his dies.

Well he won’t know until he gets a decent piece of brass to work with and while it is widely accepted that small base die are beneficial to auto loaders, it is also accepted that closely matching a die to a chamber is beneficial to the reloader and his or her program but the op is having trouble determining where the problem is coming from while using mixed headstamped range crap brass fired in some chamber that only God knows what the chamber dimensions only adds a layer of complexity. Number one is know your chamber.
I spend a great deal of time on die selection and brass tuning and just don’t need any more headaches or complications.

 

[JFrank]

That's not the answer if there is an issue with his dies.

How would you approach the OP question and please share your suggestions.
Thx in advance
J

 

[redcon1]

Well he won’t know until he gets a decent piece of brass to work with and while it is widely accepted that small base die are beneficial to auto loaders, it is also accepted that closely matching a die to a chamber is beneficial to the reloader and his or her program but the op is having trouble determining where the problem is coming from while using mixed headstamped range crap brass fired in some chamber that only God knows what the chamber dimensions only adds a layer of complexity. Number one is know your chamber.
I spend a great deal of time on die selection and brass tuning and just don’t need any more headaches or complications.

Once I went to the Forster small base die, I had no problems with LC brass. I readily agree it's not the best brass but I got 3 loads out of it before I ever had a case head separation and that was in an overgassed FN FAL and I readily admit I was giving my cartridges too much headspace back then. These are lean times and MSRs are hungry for ammo and premium brass costs twice as much as LC brass if you can even find it which, during previous times of scarcity, you couldn't. It was LC or nothing. Given that many many shooters have had acceptable results with once fired LC brass and given supply chain realties and given Jim Inhofe's 2012 amendment to the national defense act that requires the federal government to sell once fired military brass on the US civilian market, I believe every attempt should be made to make this brass work before abandoning the endeavor altogether and shelling out the dough for Lapua brass.

 

[GravelRider]

What a dope I am!

I got the SB die in the mail today. I'm also getting the house ready for some family that's coming over, but I wanted to at least run a couple of cases through to see if that fixes the issue. I was in a hurry, and I got a few cases lubed, then my wife called me up to fix something for her. I came down, and took an unlubed case from the wrong pile and promptly got it stuck in the die! At least with it not having a decapper/expander, it should be pretty easy to hammer out... But I'm going to cut my losses and worry about that in the new year!

Cheers, and thanks for the help everyone. I'll report back once I get it unstuck and run some cases though.