what ammo for my chiefs special

[jfh]

Well, Fred--

First things first: The OP's query was about cost-efficient and penetrating carry ammo for him to carry in his chief's special.

I pointed in that direction with a factory round--the Rem 38S12--which has historically been known to penetrate well. Others have joined with cites of other ammo, particularly the Speer 135-gr. JHPs, which are among the modern bullet designs. You introduced a third element the OP should be considering--performance results, as identified by an expert.

Now the OP has another issue to consider--and that's good for him to think about. That's why I rhetorically asked you what you took away from Dr. Robert's article. Up until I read that article, I had no recent information about which well-known PD ammo worked best, from the POV of a surgeon. Now I have another opinion to throw into the mix.

OTOH, I'll bet that with enough search, I can find another expert who will contradict Robert's results--that's the nature of debates over what is best when experts check in. For now, I am content to consider Roberts' opinions as the latest information.

And, BTW, for intelligent discussions here, we can have more fun catching flies with honey instead of vinegar.

Jim H.

 

[BamaBob]

thanks Jim it is a model 60-7 a stainless five shot .38 special with 1 7/8 in barrel. I got it from my fathers safe he does not use it anymore. I would like to carry it and shoot it regularly. Can you post a link to the ammo you are suggesting. right now i am considering the buffalo bore ammo but i dont tlike to order ammo on line. it just seems easier/cheaper to buy in the store after shipping ect. What i am considering is frinding the closet to the buffalo bore in the store at the best price. it seems like the 158gr +p with gas check is what i am looking for. ill be honest i have not checked out the link provided by cheiftain (i think) to FBI/Roberts' info but that is where i am headed now. This has all been very helpful thanks to everyone.

 

[jfh]

Here's the Sportsman's Guide link

to Remington Ammo: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/remington-handgun-38-special-158-gr-lhp-p-50-rds.aspx?a=213726

The one you are looking for is stock no. 13913--here is an order page.

I see the price is now about $33.00--maybe--and that they are backordered until October 12th.

Personally, I would probably do a backorder; 38 Special ammunition is still pretty hard to find, I think.

Jim H.

 

[BamaBob]

thanks Jim that is a decent price and what i am looking for. Gotta love the sportsmans guide.

 

[rklessdriver]

Remington R38S12 is IN STOCK at Able Ammo. Same price.

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=74795

One of the best .38 loads there is/ever will be. It is stoking every one of my .38's

Will

 

[BamaBob]

In case anyone was wondering

I got a 50 pack of monarch 158 gr. sjhp ammo for $16.99 at academy. I am sure I will try some other ammo but for the money this was very close to what i was looking for.
I also got a IWB holster which I am loving
Thanks for all the help guys and gals. I would like to here what experience some may have had with Monarch. I have used their .223 ammo before and been pleased with quality and price.

-Thanks, Bama

 

[AirForceShooter]

Just plain old lead wadcutters.
Work well.

AFS

 

[doc540]

I carry two types of .38 loads in my snubs:

Speer Gold Dot 135grn for short barrels

CorBon DPX with Barnes Bullets

In a life or death situation I think my shot placement is going to be more of a determining factor than any differences between those two.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Those Buffalo Bore and similar hot loads are surely going to be quite a handful in that little gun. If it is painful or even debilitating to shoot, you aren't going to practice with it. And since the small-frame snubnose revolver is one of the harder guns to shoot well, you need more practice.

 

[chieftain]

Well, Fred--

First things first: The OP's query was about cost-efficient and penetrating carry ammo for him to carry in his chief's special.

Actually best penetration and price come from lead round nose 158gr bullets. Not the 158gr HPLSHP +P that I carried for years in my, and this point is very important when discussing this load, 3 and 4 inch 38spls and 357mags. Model 19/10/13/ later 64/65/66’s and of course the 686, Ruger Security Six. Those were my revolvers at one time or another. I was not a Colt revolver fan.

I pointed in that direction with a factory round--the Rem 38S12--which has historically been known to penetrate well. Others have joined with cites of other ammo, particularly the Speer 135-gr. JHPs, which are among the modern bullet designs. You introduced a third element the OP should be considering--performance results, as identified by an expert.

Called the St Louis, Chicago, FBI load at various times, and used and well liked by the RCMP in Canada too. BUT ONLY WHEN USED IN A 3” OR LONGER BARRELED REVOLVER. Even in it’s heyday it was never recommended in the 1 7/8 inch ‘J’ frame, ever. It did no better than the round nose when used in snubbies. Many guys used it in their snubbies, just because they could get it free. It is what their departments issued. I would go so far as to say that is why it was used in the snubbies that plainclothes wore.

Now the OP has another issue to consider--and that's good for him to think about. That's why I rhetorically asked you what you took away from Dr. Robert's article. Up until I read that article, I had no recent information about which well-known PD ammo worked best, from the POV of a surgeon. Now I have another opinion to throw into the mix.

Besides a Surgeon, Dr Roberts is a LtCmdr in the Naval Reserve and a reserve LEO in a California Police Agency. He is also the leading SCIENTIFIC researcher in Terminal Ballistics in America today, since Dr Flackler retired. His research is applied by most Federal Agencies and most other agencies around the country that use SCIENTIFIC research to choose their ammunition.

I use my own extensive combat experience and that of several of my very experienced friends. Some old timers like me, many new Young Bloods both in and from the SandBox and presently on duty with multiple LEO’s agencies.

OTOH, I'll bet that with enough search, I can find another expert who will contradict Robert's results--that's the nature of debates over what is best when experts check in. For now, I am content to consider Roberts' opinions as the latest information.

If you can find any researcher with equivelant experience/credentials/following, I will be glad to listen. But please no back yard boxes of wooden pegs, or water packed phone books.

And of course they follow existing FBI protocols, and have their research correlated with field results. I will listen. Until then, I will be highly suspect of that data.

Do belief from a discussion/debate stand point that you would HAVE TO DO research to disagree with Dr Roberts.

Where do you get your currant information from? You have attempted to corner and question me, my experience, data and information. Now you can tell us why and where, your data/experience comes from?

And, BTW, for intelligent discussions here, we can have more fun catching flies with honey instead of vinegar.

Please point out the vinegar. Disagreeing and curious about folks refusing to or not wanting to use experience and science is not vinegar. It is a legitimate question.

Doesn’t matter whether you personally like it or not. A very large problem is the field of terminal ballistics is this belief in myths and stories, instead of facts and experience.

It just simply amazes me.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[Oyeboten]

What ever happened to merely sawing a generous, deep "X" into the nose of a plain RNL 158 grn?


Anyone know if those tended to work well?

 

[jfh]

point by point, Fred:

1. I agree, the best penetration / price performance comes from LRNs. Arguably, that round has other problems when used for self-defense. Long-standing issues include lack of a large wound channel and through-and-through penetration without significant damage. Since the opening post inquired about cost efficient ammo for carry, I did assume that performance would be limited to appropriate ammo for self defense. It appears you did, too.

What do you know is the most appropriate carry ammo for (nominal) 2" barrel 38 Special revolvers?

2. Insofar as the barrel length issues--I am aware of the specifications of the FBI revolvers in which the 158-gr. LSWC-HP rounds were used. As an aside, I think (based on comments by another knowledgable person in a different forum, in a thread no longer available--the 'speer 8 discussions' in the S&W reloading forum) those tests also included 2&1/2" barrels as well. I have relied on reference to simple tests for penetration by a 2" 38 Special revolver in ballistic gel, such as shown here, on brassfetcher's site. A corrected penetration depth of 11+" is, in my limited understanding, adequate criteria for typical civilian self-defense needs.

3. You are mistaken in your belief that I have tried to "...corner and question me, my experience, data and information." That is your conclusion, not mine. My assessment is that you did come on a bit strong in your preceding posts, just as you do here, in the post above.

IOW, I share the assessment that wheelgunslinger offered in the post immediately following your initial post--his comments can be found here. In addition to his observations about that post, I note that the inference that people in this forum would necessarily blow Roberts' information and knowledge off--when no cite to it previously in this thread has been offered--does suggest a certain intellectual dullness by members here. AFAIK, posters in this forum are hungry to learn--but we do need references to follow, I think.

It is the conjunction of your obvious knowledge on this subject--wound damage--with your personal observations--

"I guess their experience and opinions vastly out weight Dr Roberts and the FBI Research.

It's America where you are free to join the line to prove Darwin right.

Go figure."​

or, in the post above--

"It just simply amazes me.

Go figure."​

--that lead me to the conclusion that you choose to use vinegar rather than honey--sarcasm rather than factual presentation in a style respectful of your readers. Clearly you have the superior knowledge at hand. The style of presenting it did obviously lead to irritation felt by readers. Rhetoric not found offensive by the listener can facilitate transfer of knowledge. That's all.

Jim H.

 

[Snowdog]

Please point out the vinegar.

Um...

It's America where you are free to join the line to prove Darwin right.

Yup, we're all just a bunch of retarded lemmings looking for that cliff... those who don't consult the sage advice of the oracle, that is.

Gotta agree with Jim in that there's an odor of condescension in that first post of yours.

But hey, this is a free country, "go figure".

 

[snooperman]

Snub nose ammo

There are many excellent choices for the snub nose 38 special today that will work. You may want to try the new critical defense by Hornady or the excellent Federal Nyclad round that is being produced again. I like have both.

 

[Brian Williams]

What ever happened to merely sawing a generous, deep "X" into the nose of a plain RNL 158 grn?


Anyone know if those tended to work well?

No it does not, filing the nose of a 158 LRN to a flat point would be better.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

No it does not, filing the nose of a 158 LRN to a flat point would be better.

Ive done this to a few Prvi Partizan 158gr LRN. I shot them into both a wet, and dry book (probably about 2 1/2 inches thick, hardback and the wet one was softback. They opened up very impressively in the dry book, stoping just short of going all the way through but just punched through the wet one and made a nice clean hole. a normal LRN fired int to he same wet book yawed and made a pretty nasty hole.

This was with a short 2" barrel, results may be better with a longer barrel, but if I suppose if I had to carry LRN, it would be normal unaltered LRN, given that it will penetrate deeply, and theres a good chance it will yaw, giving more tissue damage than even a good hollowpoint.

 

[hoptob]

Clearly you have the superior knowledge at hand. The style of presenting it did obviously lead to irritation felt by readers. Rhetoric not found offensive by the listener can facilitate transfer of knowledge.

Annoying style aside, what exactly did we learn from this outburst of the superior knowledge? That Rem FBI load won't always expand when fired from a snub? Or that wadcutters are a good choice? That's a news!



Mike

 

[wrs840]

I now carry my S&W 442 with Hornady Critical Defense 110gr FTX for two reasons:

(1) Hornady's claim seems to be supported by some reviews I've read that the design affords good penetration through semi-heavy clothing coupled with reliable expansion in tissue (or gelatin) at the reduced velocities of snub-fire.

(2) I'm grouping more accurately with it at 7 yards than most others I've tried, for some reason...

FWIW,
Les

 

[1911Tuner]

I prefer the standard 158 Grain lead semi-wadcutter hollow point +P, also known as the "Treasury Load."

That's a good one, though a mite rambunctious in a J-Frame. I like the standard pressure 158 grain SWC ammo...if it's even loaded any more.

"Forsooth!" Say they. "Why such an amemic cartridge in a barrel length that'll make it even moreso?"

Because the snub .38's intended use is at powder burning distance or actually with the muzzle pressed agains the brigand's belly and emptied in rapid fashion. Hence the term "Belly Gun."

It would be of great utility if the gun didn't bounce around overmuch whilst filling his abdominal cavity with lead and hot gasses.

Go get some, and shoot a watermelon with your snub with the muzzle in contact...and see if you doubt the effectiveness of the cartridge and the gun.

Tip:

A raincoat and goggles would be a good idea.

 

[Lord Samwise]

so after reading this thread, and this link-
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19914
about 3 times-

I'm going with the Double Tap 125 grain +P JHP
$36.99 for a box of 50 from Midway. Seems like the way to go. These use the same bullet as the Speer Gold Dot, as far as I can tell.

 

[wnycollector]

I'm going with the Double Tap 125 grain +P JHP
$36.99 for a box of 50 from Midway. Seems like the way to go. These use the same bullet as the Speer Gold Dot, as far as I can tell.

Lord Samwise I dont want to rain on your parade, but I chronoed the DT .38 load out of 3 different S&W revolvers (1 7/8" J frame, 4" N fame and 5" K frame) and NONE of them cracked the 1000fps barrier let alone the 1100 or 1175fps as claimed by doubletap. Please dont get me wrong, I LOVE DT ammo and carry it in .357, 9mm, .40 and .45...but their .38 does not live up to the claims. I carry the remi flavor of the FBI load in ALL my .38's.

 

[BamaBob]

wnycollector thanks for the info. Have you by chance chronoed any monarch ammo particularly the 158 gr sjhp. I know it is the cheap stuff but thought you may have some info.

 

[Lord Samwise]

you said you chrono'd them- what speeds did you see?

 

[TexasBill]

Thanks for the good info; I have been using the Hornady Critical Defense rounds. Sounds like time to switch!

 

[Elvishead]

Magtech makes a non +P 158g SJHP that has a nice big soft HP.

Good ammo at a good price. I keep them in my old Model 37 aluminum J-frame