What Constitutes Accurate Shooting

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AZAndy said:
The NRA pistol instructor test requires a 3" group at ten yards, which is about what I consider adequate competence. I'd have to be using a crappy gun, or having a bad day, to not be able to at least do that well. One thing I like to work at is the fastest and most accurate draw-and-fire. Can I draw and hit within 3" of my point of aim (at ten yards) in a second a half or less? If I need to stop somebody fast, that first shot is going to count for a lot.

I wouldn't be disappointed in the target the OP showed, but I'd take it as a sign that I need to work on consistency a bit. Come to think of it, I already do need to work on that. :)
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It is not all about speed. It is not a wild west shootout. I like these 2 drills to determine my level of competency with my carry gun. Fast is fine but accuracy is final or as Vickers says Speed is Fine, Accuracy is Final.

The Wizard


The Test "Even a monkey falls out of a tree every once and while"



 
Trey Veston said:
I guess it depends on your parameters. You can state that very few production guns can shoot 1" at 25 yards and I can show you that three of my cheap, off-the shelf pistols can do it. Then you add the word, "consistently". What is consistently? I can get 1" or better groups more than once, but not every time at the range, and that is due to me and not the gun. If you want to add more restrictions, like only off-the shelf ammo, then no, I don't think I've ever gotten a 1" group from a factory pistol using factory ammo.

2" at 25 yards, 5-shots, with a rest, slow fire, is easy. I make sure every single one of my carry guns is capable of that kind of accuracy. Are all pistols capable of it? No. But my XDS 40 has never shot over 2" at 25 yards. That's pretty consistent. And that was with factory ammo. My new P365 that I shot for the first time a couple of days ago got 2" groups at 25 yards (with reloads).

So, I guess I disagree that 1" capable pistols are unicorns unless you state cheap ammo and 1" groups every single time. And I disagree that 2" guns are only 1911s and revolvers, because out of a dozen pistols I own, all but 2 are capable of that.
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To clarify, "consistently" to me means the vast majority of the time. I guess I don't have a number to put on it, but somewhere equal or better than 80%. If it only does it 50% of the time how can you come to the conclusion that it's just you and not the gun?

Just about any pistol will shoot 1" at some point if you try long enough. The more accurate the gun, the more often that will happen. They used to use the average of at least (5) 5 shot groups to determine the average to use to express accuracy when using a machine rest. These days it seems to be whatever the best group shot is. I prefer to use an aggregate of many targets over different sessions. So our differences can be accounted for by different methodology.

I never said that the "only 2" guns" are revolvers and 1911's. In fact I explicitly stated there were probably others. That was a statement about the ones I've had the most experience with and wasn't intended to be an exclusive list.
 
I shoot at a public range in Florida during the winter months. In 25 years of observing average people on the 12 yard range with hand guns darn few people are shooting anything like some of the preceding posts. It just doesn’t happen. Yes there are shooters shooting some of groups mentioned, most with high end guns and they are there week after week. I shoot on Wednesdays and Fridays.
My own ability has deteriorated with age but even in my prime The stuff kicked around above is way above my own abilities.
So IMO the op is doing just fine.
 
As far as standard production guns I've had guns that I could pull off 2" 5-Ahotand 4" groups at 15 yards (Offhand).
AZAndy said:
The NRA pistol instructor test requires a 3" group at ten yards, which is about what I consider adequate competence. I'd have to be using a crappy gun, or having a bad day, to not be able to at least do that well. One thing I like to work at is the fastest and most accurate draw-and-fire. Can I draw and hit within 3" of my point of aim (at ten yards) in a second a half or less? If I need to stop somebody fast, that first shot is going to count for a lot.

I wouldn't be disappointed in the target the OP showed, but I'd take it as a sign that I need to work on consistency a bit. Come to think of it, I already do need to work on that. :)
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I would say that 15 Yard Target is a little worse than what I consider normal.

Roughly 50% will be the following or less.
15-Yards
50 Rounds - 4"
25 Rounds - 3.5"
10 Rounds - 3.0"
5 Rounds - 2.5"

Assuming it's not a case of selective memory.

Of course about 50% of the time I will do something egregious that opens up the group like that especially bad 7-Ring Flier that opened it up to 4.2".

Of course once in a while I get something silly like a 0.75" 7-Shot / 7-Yard Group from an LCP.
 
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whughett said:
I shoot at a public range in Florida during the winter months. In 25 years of observing average people on the 12 yard range with hand guns darn few people are shooting anything like some of the preceding posts. It just doesn’t happen. Yes there are shooters shooting some of groups mentioned, most with high end guns and they are there week after week. I shoot on Wednesdays and Fridays.
My own ability has deteriorated with age but even in my prime The stuff kicked around above is way above my own abilities.
So IMO the op is doing just fine.
Click to expand...

I agree 100% with this. Go to the average range any day and look at peoples targets. Most people can't shoot B27 targets at 7 yards and keep in the 8 let alone the 9 & X ring but are we supposed to judge ourselves on that? Accuracy is relative IMHO to the task. I agree the OP is doing fine on a static range but he is also alluding to being able to make a shot in a defensive situation. Shooting precision groups on a square range at a target is one thing. Shooting on a 2 way range is another. They are 2 different skill sets. They over lap but they are not the same.

Like I said earlier in the thread. I watched a guy shoot out the center of a B8 target at 25 yards. He was all in the black. He was dicing that thing up. He stood in a perfect traditional bulleye stance and he went to town. The end result was almost no black left on the target and one big hole in the middle. His level of precision accuracy was stunning. He technique was impressive. He took is time. He had a routine for each shot like Larry Bird shooting free throws. Went through the routine and put the bullet where he wanted it each time.

That said I was banging away shooting The Baer Solutions Drill at 5 yards. Basically you load 10 rounds into a mag then 3 into another. From the draw you shoot the one rectangle 5 shots and then shoot the other rectangle 5 shots. You then do a slide lock reload and shoot 3 to the center circle. Par time is 9 seconds. It is a pass fail drill.100% hits under 9 seconds. I shot it in 9.73 and failed on time and I dropped a shot on the center circle. This tests a lot of skills. Accuracy is in the mix but not what I would call precision accuracy. Combat accuracy or gunfight accuracy maybe. It is testing your ability to engage more than one target and do a tactical reload. I feel like I am sooooo slow compared to those who can really shoot. In reality I am faster than most and much slower than others. I do not consider myself a precision shooter. I am combat accurate and am maybe fast enough to defend myself if called upon to do so. I do not shoot competitions much. I shoot as a hobby and for defensive skill purposes. This is what my target looked like. This is with a Wilson Combat EDC-X9. I am a duffer with a nice set of clubs. That stray at 10 o'clock is the miss on the circle. I am not post this to brag I am posting this to show that precision is relative to the task. In this scenario this is accurate enough, almost.

Here is a link to the target. https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...ca5ee966c4cd/1482552772309/BAER+Standards.pdf

UqvoXfr.jpg

So take the 2 shooters the bulleye guy and myself who are shooting next to each other at the range. If we both stick to our style of shooting his being all about precision and my being about speed with combat accuracy who is going to win the gunfight? My money is on me. This is hypothetical because for all I know he would smoke me on the same drill but you get my point. I am getting off 13 shots all within the size of a grapefruit in the time it is taking him to fire 2-3 rounds into the same hole. We are both shooting guns but we are practicing different skills.

So to the OP what kind of accuracy or precision are you looking to obtain? What type of shooting are you training for?
 
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WVsig said:
I agree 100% with this. Go to the average range any day and look at peoples targets. Most people can't shoot B27 targets at 7 yards and keep in the 8 let alone the 9 & X ring but are we supposed to judge ourselves on that? Accuracy is relative IMHO to the task. I agree the OP is doing fine on a static range but he is also alluding to being able to make a shot in a defensive situation. Shooting precision groups on a square range at a target is one thing. Shooting on a 2 way range is another. They are 2 different skill sets. They over lap but they are not the same.

Like I said earlier in the thread. I watched a guy shoot out the center of a B8 target at 25 yards. He was all in the black. He was dicing that thing up. He stood in a perfect traditional bulleye stance and he went to town. The end result was almost no black left on the target and one big hole in the middle. His level of precision accuracy was stunning. He technique was impressive. He took is time. He had a routine for each shot like Larry Bird shooting free throws. Went through the routine and put the bullet where he wanted it each time.

That said I was banging away shooting The Baer Solutions Drill at 5 yards. Basically you load 10 rounds into a mag then 3 into another. From the draw you shoot the one rectangle 5 shots and then shoot the other rectangle 5 shots. You then do a slide lock reload and shoot 3 to the center circle. Par time is 9 seconds. It is a pass fail drill.100% hits under 9 seconds. I shot it in 9.73 and failed on time and I dropped a shot on the center circle. This tests a lot of skills. Accuracy is in the mix but not what I would call precision accuracy. Combat accuracy or gunfight accuracy maybe. It is testing your ability to engage more than one target and do a tactical reload. I feel like I am sooooo slow compared to those who can really shoot. In reality I am faster than most and much slower than others. I do not consider myself a precision shooter. I am combat accurate and am maybe fast enough to defend myself if called upon to do so. I do not shoot competitions much. I shoot as a hobby and for defensive skill purposes. This is what my target looked like. This is with a Wilson Combat EDC-X9. I am a duffer with a nice set of clubs. That stray at 10 o'clock is the miss on the circle. I am not post this to brag I am posting this to show that precision is relative to the task. In this scenario this is accurate enough, almost.

Here is a link to the target. https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...ca5ee966c4cd/1482552772309/BAER+Standards.pdf

View attachment 892514

So take the 2 shooters the bulleye guy and myself who are shooting next to each other at the range. If we both stick to our style of shooting his being all about precision and my being about speed with combat accuracy who is going to win the gunfight? My money is on me. This is hypothetical because for all I know he would smoke me on the same drill but you get my point. I am getting off 13 shots all within the size of a grapefruit in the time it is taking him to fire 2-3 rounds into the same hole. We are both shooting guns but we are practicing different skills.

So to the OP what kind of accuracy or precision are you looking to obtain? What type of shooting are you training for?
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I just want to be competent. Whether that's 5 Shots - 3 Yards - 1.5 Seconds from the holster or the ability to make a 15 Yard T-Box Shot.
 
94045 said:
I just want to be competent. Whether that's 5 Shots - 3 Yards - 1.5 Seconds from the holster or the ability to make a 15 Yard T-Box Shot.
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I recommend getting some professional training from a respected trainer. They can give you an accurate assessment of your shooting skills based on watching you shoot. They can correct your technique issues and flaws and give you personalized advice on how to get better.

If I could go back and start all over again I would have bought a lot less guns and pay for a lot more training. It seems like you are all over the place in what you are trying to accomplish. You cannot be all things. You cannot train for every contingency.

You need to accurately access your own risk profile and train to be able to respond within that risk profile. Stop reading the internet and get some professional instruction and train to the task. The reality is that shooting on a square range like 99% of us to is not going to full prepare you for a 2 way range. There are stressors and variables you cannot simulate. The reality is you will never no how well you will react and perform on a 2 way range until you are on one. IMHO. I spend most of my mental energy on situational awareness so I can avoid ever being on one. YMMV
 
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94045 said:
I just want to be competent. Whether that's 5 Shots - 3 Yards - 1.5 Seconds from the holster or the ability to make a 15 Yard T-Box Shot.
Click to expand...

Don't take this the wrong way but your expectations are too high. At 3 or 5 yards if you are good you are going to be able to draw and get an A zone hit in 1.5 seconds. You are not going be getting off 5 shots from the draw in 1.5 seconds. A good test of your raw reaction time is gun single handed pointed down range with your finger on the trigger. Set the timer to random and fire as soon as you hear the beep. This is your raw reaction time. Most people are somewhere between .15 and .55. So the idea that you are going to get that gun out of the holster on target and fire 5 shots in 1.5 seconds is unrealistic.

Look at this video of a guy shooting The Wizard. His times are 1.6ish to fire one shot and this guy can shoot. Don't be so hard on yourself. Work to improve and get better. Be realistic and be safe.

 
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Waveski said:
OP -

Looking back at several of your recent threads , then re-reading this one , I get the impression that you are letting your head get in your way.
Relax. Don't overthink it. Set the numbers aside. Just look for steady improvement - by your standards.

It'll come.
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Best advice in the entire thread! :thumbup:
 
,
WVsig said:
Don't take this the wrong way but your expectations are too high. At 3 or 5 yards if you are good you are going to be able to draw and get an A zone hit in 1.5 seconds. You are not going be getting off 5 shots from the draw in 1.5 seconds. A good test of your raw reaction time is gun single handed pointed down range with your finger on the trigger. Set the timer to random and fire as soon as you hear the beep. This is your raw reaction time. Most people are somewhere between .15 and .55. So the idea that you are going to get that gun out of the holster on target and fire 5 shots in 1.5 seconds is unrealistic.

Look at this video of a guy shooting The Wizard. His times are 1.6ish to fire one shot and this guy can shoot.

Click to expand...


That was more a hypothetical example as opposed to a hard number. I don't think it likely Jerry Miculek records are in danger. I'm not going to be drawing, hitting with 6 shots, reloading a revolver and hitting with another 6 Shots in under 3.0 Seconds any time soon.
 
ShootingIsFun said:
I've been grappling with this as well... Add the boredom of a square range to the cost of shooting + consider my lack of free time (3 kids + life responsibilities) ... It's been a long time since I've been shooting...
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I struggle with this as well. Supporting a wife & 3 kids. I tend to work 6 days a week I have a few places I can shoot on private land but most of them take a while to get to. I was thinking today I might have to go to an indoor range. I prefer to shoot on private land when possible because it gives me more freedom. I can work from the holster or bust water bottles. Whatever as long as I am safe.

I used to shoot more. The best group I've ever managed was with an old Dan Wesson .357. It was about 3" at 25 yards. I was trying to put 5 rounds on a playing card slow fire, off hand two hand hold. I managed to hit the card once dead center. The other 4 rounds were just below the bottom edge of the card with all four holes touching each other. I think the center hit was the first shot then I flinched on the other four. No, I didn't take a picture. I was frustrated that I didn't put all 5 on the card I am sure that revolver is capable of it. I have a really hard time going slow enough to do something like that & am no where near good enough to do it quickly.
Lately when I go shoot it seems my first shot will be dead on but then things tend to degrade. I need to practice more & I have been doing some dry fire but it is frustrating. I need to get some practice so I can get back to a level of mediocrity.
 
My EDC drill is mag dump then run around a tree that is about 10yrds from the bench then reload and another mag dump, we try to stay on a paper plate at 10, 15 and 25yrds. I use 2 hands standing and at 25yrds sometimes 2nd mag is hard for me.
 
whughett said:
I shoot at a public range in Florida during the winter months. In 25 years of observing average people on the 12 yard range with hand guns darn few people are shooting anything like some of the preceding posts. It just doesn’t happen. Yes there are shooters shooting some of groups mentioned, most with high end guns and they are there week after week. I shoot on Wednesdays and Fridays.
My own ability has deteriorated with age but even in my prime The stuff kicked around above is way above my own abilities.
So IMO the op is doing just fine.
Click to expand...

Well, you are talking about the Walmart of America... o_O

I used to think that I was an extremely good pistol shooter. Certainly better than all of my friends and anyone I qualified with at the range. Qualified Expert with anything that fires a bullet in the military.

Then a few years ago, I bought a Glock G29 10mm. My first Glock in decades. Someone suggested I should join GSSF and start competing to see how good I really am.

It was an eye-opener, lol.

The ultimate goal in GSSF is to get the elusive perfect score of 500. You get a patch and your name in the Glock magazine. After a couple of years of trying, I never got one. A couple of other people in my area have, but not me. I think my best is 497 or 494. I tried three different pistols with all sorts of mods and I'm just not that good. :oops:

I'm certainly above average, but if one really wants to measure their level of ability, then competing against others in an official capacity is where the rubber meets the road.
 
5-SHOTS said:
Totally agree. A target paper don't move and don't shoot. It's important to have a good, accurate reliable pistol that shoots POA with the choosen ammo but in a death/life situation you are not going to know how good you will react and if you will survive.
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We have moving targets all the time in our matches.

The really good thing about my club is there aren't many rules about what we can't do. Shoot from the holster? Fine. Shooting and moving? Fine. Rapid fire? Fine.

No full autos and keep the muzzle below the backstop covers about 99% of our don'ts.
 
those look like good groups for SD training to me. you might want to try some basic plinking with tin cans to see how you feel you do. it is good practice pickup up targets quick. I bet you'll be surprised how slow you are plinking if you usually shoot paper targets, and in 1/2 hour or so you'll be 2 or 3 times as fast and getting good hits.
 
As others have said, there's nothing like shooting in matches to give you a sense of what is possible. Go shoot a USPSA match and try to squad with a Master or Grand Master shooter - then you'll have a better idea of what is possible in terms of combining speed and accuracy.
 
My daughter-in-law has to qualify first of every year. I spent 2 weeks in December working with her on her head, not her gun hand.

I know she can shoot well enough. It's her believing she can that helped her shoot 233/250 for Feds. It bums me their office instructor only tells them what they're "doing wrong", and never once praises them.

BTW, she outshot him by 8 points this year.

Mission accomplished.

OP - don't worry about everyone else and their fancy target pics. Practice so you have confidence in your ability, and I guarantee that's good enough.
 
94045, what do you aim at when you shoot? what is it, exactly, that you put your front sight on when you pull the trigger?

murf
 
I spent 6 years shooting every week in a 50 foot bullseye league. My average score on any given target was in the low 80s for each 10 shot string. So I was mostly inside the 8 ring on a 50 foot NRA target. Not good enough to be competitive. My time and interest in NRA bullseye dwindled. Anyone who was ranked at Master or High master class was shooting accurized 1911s from Les Baer, Rock River Arms, or a Colt that had been worked over by a local bullseye gunsmith. There were a few Kimbers on the line also. I shot a Kimber Custom Classic Target. In the club's ransom rest it could shoot 5, 5 shot groups at about 1.25" consistently at 25 yards. This was using my hand load of 4.0 grains of bullseye and a 200 lswc. A Les Baer bullseye gun that belonged to a friend, could do 5 .75" groups in a row from the ransom rest at 25 yards. The Les Baer is a $3,000 gun today.

Stock guns are not accurate enough for NRA bullseye competition. Folks who claim 1" consistent groups at 25 yards from their cheap stock carry gun with factory ammo are full of manure.
 
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