What DI doesn't do -

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Tirod

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Recently read a magazine describing direct impingement gas operation in the AR. It was an article on a piston gun and seemed to have left out some information. I've noticed a lot of confusion and out right misinformation on the subject, so let's clarify what really happens.

Does the DI system direct gas into the action? Yes - there's no denying it. How much seems to be the issue. In the article, and in public perception, hot, nasty, dirty gases are sprayed all over the bolt, upper, and everything in between. It's not quite that bad, folks.

Nothing happens until the bullet passes the gas port in the barrel, right? Then the opening is uncovered to allow gas to pass through a .063 hole into the tube, and from there to the gas key in the bolt carrier. At this point (the article fails to mention,) the gas is directed into the chamber behind the bolt, which is sealed by the gas rings. The pressure pushes the bolt carrier back, rotating the bolt, which is unlocked.

Meanwhile, the bullet hasn't stopped moving. The whole point of the gas port location and size is to time the bolt opening until AFTER the bullet has left the barrel. Otherwise, the case would be subjected to high pressure and prevent extraction.

It doesn't have high pressure because the barrel is unobstructed by the bullet and has a gaping .223 hole in it. Which will pass pressure and residuals more, a .063 gas port, or a .223 muzzle?

THEN the bolt carrier moves backward, and before the gas key and tube separate, the chamber is partially cleared, allowing residual gas pressure to escape past the brass. Nearly ALL semi auto's do that, as the cartridge case is pushing the bolt carrier back to power the action. ALL blowback actions do that - it's the only way they work.

So the gas entering the chamber and action comes largely past the case from the .223 throat end of the barrel.

NONE of the gas escaping out the muzzle is directed into the action, it's open first, and substantially bleeds off pressure before the action is even beginning to extract the case. The bolt carrier has to move at least an inch to uncover the gas tube end, pressure is substantially reduced at that point, and both ends of the barrel are venting the majority of what's left. Two big holes pass more volume and pressure than one tiny hole.

The hot, nasty, dirty gases are not being totally vented into the action by the gas tube. It's a small fraction, and a lot comes from around the case during extraction. As for the pressure IN the bolt carrier, it's vented out the side holes facing the ejection port. After the first shot, there's no port cover to constrain it - and there isn't much to hold back. I've yet to see much burnt powder on one. The pressure is so low it won't open the cover, the bolt carrier does.

How much pressure is needed to cycle the action? Can your children charge the bolt on an AR? Sure. It's obvious it doesn't need much, and not that much gas is tapped to simply unlock the bolt. The spring and buffer arrest most of it, leaving about 25 pounds of recoil out of the 50,000 pounds generated.

It's the same with piston guns. The brass on those comes out dirty, too, and the same on roller locked actions. Blow back pistols and .22's, dirty. Gas passes around the case and gets into the action regardless. Only a bolt, pump, or lever won't.

The DI system isn't dumping all it's gas into the action, and those who perpetuate that misconception are either uninformed or selling something. Nothing wrong with buying and owning piston guns, most semi autos are. Selling the idea they are substantially cleaner, not so much. Like most things, it's simply a matter of degree.

It's just a .063 hole's worth.
 
I've shot 200+ rounds of Wolf 7.62x39 through my 20 inch DMPS upper and it still runs fine. I have seen 5.56 blanks make a dirty mess of a M16+BFD at just a few rounds but even this Wolf doesn't seem to be a proablem, but I'm not into magdumps.
 
gas is directed into the chamber behind the bolt, which is sealed by the gas rings. The pressure pushes the bolt carrier back, rotating the bolt, which is unlocked.
The bolt is also pushed forward at the same time the bolt carrier is pushed back. This helps take some pressure off the locking lugs as the bolt unlocks.

Meanwhile, the bullet hasn't stopped moving. The whole point of the gas port location and size is to time the bolt opening until AFTER the bullet has left the barrel. Otherwise, the case would be subjected to high pressure and prevent extraction.
Illustrating one of the drawbacks of the CAR/M4 gas system vs. Rifle or Midlength. The longer dwell time between the gas port (which is closer to the chamber) and the muzzle.
 
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Selling the idea they are substantially cleaner, not so much. Like most things, it's simply a matter of degree
.

Well, I'm too old and lazy to break out the slide rule and debate numbers, laws and lab coat findings...

All I'll say is......Run 1000 rounds of the same ammo, under the same conditions, the exact same way, through a DI AR, then the Piston Drive AR and come back and tell us how much more crud is in the DI unit compared to the PD unit.

Make you a deal, in June there is going to be a match at the local spot, most of the boys run DI rifles, about 20% of them, fancy the Piston Drive rifles.....

I'll clean all the PD rifles while you clean the exact same number of DI rifles, first one done....wins! You may use a pressure washer also.......

The whole idea of the DI system was to lessen parts, which resulted in lessened cost, and a supposed increase in reliability due to less parts to fail at the most inopportune time.

Well, it worked until Uncle Sam and his whiz kids got a hold of it, and in their infinite wisdom they tried to save another dime by messing with the propellant of the ammunition Mr.Stoner had designed the rifle to use....Fail!

On paper or plasma screens, the DI system is shown to be, more reliable and less costly.

Now what all that has to do with the inherent cleanliness of the Piston Drive system compared to the Direct Impingement system, I don't know....my mind wonders!

Bottom line, both systems allow blow-by gasses into the receiver, the DI system introduces even more gas into the receiver...more gas in the receiver...more crud in the receiver. It's elementary!
 
I find DI rifles to be filthy after just a couple hundred rounds, like more crud than I've seen inside of piston rifles by a lot.

I would rather have a DI AR though, because that's how it was designed and it seems to have worked well for a few decades, not to mention standardization of parts...
 
Excellent post, Tirod. And I agree completely. The hype about GP uppers is dizzying and tiresome, especially for those of us who've round thousands upon thousands of rounds through DI guns and know the truth.

Use dirty ammo, your gun is gonna get dirty. I don't care if it's DI or GP. More crud gets into the action when it falls from the case mouth during extraction than what escapes the BCG on a DI AR. I'll say right now, the chamber and recess forward of the locking lugs on an AK is always dirtier than it is in an AR, in my experience.

You wanna see a gun that poops where it eats, look at the fluted chamber roller delayed HKs and copies. Now those get dirty.
 
Everybody and his brother is selling his own separate and distinct design of gas piston mutant AR. For all their supposed advantages, better hope your brand doesn't go out of business and leave you hanging for parts.
 
Well, it worked until Uncle Sam and his whiz kids got a hold of it, and in their infinite wisdom they tried to save another dime by messing with the propellant of the ammunition Mr.Stoner had designed the rifle to use....Fail!

The propellant change was due to the fact the design propellant would not meet the velocity specs for the spec'd chamber pressure. Nothing to do with cost.


The DI system has less mass and is less likely to put undue stresses on the barrel. A distinct advantage for an across the course or DMR rifle.
 
Yes, and also, the gas is being blown to the inside of the bolt carrier, not straight to the bolt face.

Here's my experience:
-DI is definitely dirtier than most piston systems
-DI definitely works and is quite clean enough to go a couple 100 rounds, assuming no suppressor and reasonable cleaning and lube otherwise
-piston systems vary in how clean they run too, and some piston setups leave the gun almost as dirty as a DI AR
-not having to separately maintain the gas-piston end of things reduces the time and complexity of routine cleaning and lubrication

Everybody and his brother is selling his own separate and distinct design of gas piston mutant AR. For all their supposed advantages, better hope your brand doesn't go out of business and leave you hanging for parts.

+10. Something to be said for standardization off of a USGI system.
 
Heresy. This is plain and simple heresy. Next you'll be telling me that DI rifles don't bake their bolts to several hundred degrees Farenheit, speeding their inevitable failure. ;)
 
All I'll say is......Run 1000 rounds of the same ammo, under the same conditions, the exact same way, through a DI AR, then the Piston Drive AR and come back and tell us how much more crud is in the DI unit compared to the PD unit.


It doesnt really matter if the gun gets dirty. What matters is whether or not it continues to run dirty.
 
For all their supposed advantages, better hope your brand doesn't go out of business and leave you hanging for parts.

Should a piston system actually prove to be superior, and be implemented by the US military, there will be a mil spec for a system, right?

I'm going to wildly guess that most of the others will disappear quickly at that point. Their makers don't need to go out of business.
 
http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers

"Filthy #14 is the most used, and has (as 12-24-09) 28905 rounds down range. The barrel is original. It has never had a brush put through it. -At 16,400 rounds bolt lug cracked. Replaced the bolt carrier group

-At approximately 26,000 rounds fired a 5 shot 50m group that went into 0.5". This might not be that tight at 100 meters.

-At 26,450 rds had 3 failures to extract. Replaced BCG and cleaned gun for the first time

We use only SLip2000 EWL for lube and Slip 2000 725 to clean.

**All of the rounds were fired during class (at the rate of approximately 1,250 rounds every 3 days)**

I do not recommend allowing the gun to go this long without PM (preventive maintenance). However, we wanted to see how far we could take this particular gun (#14) without being burdened by the myth of meticulous cleaning."

a well-made AR works just fine with DI. However, like every firearm and mechanical device, they do not appreciate sand, mud, coarse dirt, sludge, etc.
 
I wipe down the outside of the bolt carrier group on my 17" 3-Gun rifle (an MSTN DI upper) about once a year.

I've run a two-day class with a more or less stock RRA 16" MLGS (DI) upper, over 2000 rounds, without cleaning. It ran fine.
 
Less moving parts = Less that can go wrong
You will always have to clean your rifle in one or both areas when it needs it.
If they could have designed a better system and used it for the military, it propably would have been done 45 yrs ago. Both have pro's and Con's. Standardization of piston driven parts would make sense but everyone has some sort of design, hope you have a good one... and parts for it.
Yes, piston systems help keep the bolt carrier group a little cooler for the extractor spring assy.
Yes, Piston systems keep things cleaner inside the upper receiver and BCG. They sometimes used nails for firing pins due to carbon buildup inside the BCG... Vietnam era story.
My thought... the gas system that has run for 50yrs and is still used by the military today can't be all that bad.
 
Less moving parts = Less that can go wrong

True, but the gas piston is not prone on failure anyway.

I think the AR is fine just like it is, and don't see a reason to replace a $1100 Colt 6920 with a $2500 piston carbine.
 
I don't see how anyone can deny DI guns are substantially dirtier than piston guns. If you like your DI gun and it is reliable, that is fine. But anyone who has shot any of the popular piston guns and a DI AR knows the piston guns run much cleaner. You can argue the size of the hole all you want, it's all semantics. I can remember the crud I had to pull out of my M16 after a single combat load. I've shot over twice as many rounds through my M1A and had the receiver still be essentially clean. Anymore, I don't even bother cleaning the bolt or receiver of that rifle if it has less than 500 rounds through it since its last cleaning, and even then, I pull out less crud than I can ever remember pulling out of a DI rifle with more than a single magazine through it. Same with the AK and SKS. Even with notoriously cruddy steel cased ammo, these rifles are comparatively very easy to clean compared to the DI rifles. I can remember running 500+ rounds of the old dirty Wolf ammo with that red waxy crud through my Russian SKS. I thought that was a PITA to clean. Then I cleaned an M16. Man, give me the SKS back...

I can see how someone with little or no experience with other rifles could say DI rifles aren't that bad--but in my experience, they are. If I never have to clean another one, it will be too soon. And since imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and there wasn't a whole lot of other designs imitating the AR's gas system, and in fact, the current trend among ARs away from the AR gas system, it would appear a large majority agrees with me.
 
Before I was a Small Arms Repair Instructor at Aberdeen Proving Grounds I carried a M-16 and before that I carried a M-2 Carbine the former was DI and the latter was piston drive.
When I fired the M-16 I cleaned the entire weapon lubed with special oil and sang it a lulaby which took up to 45 minutes and the rifle would still jam due to fouling after 100 rnds or so. When I fired the carbine I would clean the chamber, bore and bolt splash some oil on it and call it good. The carbine never jamed.
BTW the bore on a 223/5.56 is .224
 
If I never have to clean another one, it will be too soon. And since imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and there wasn't a whole lot of other designs imitating the AR's gas system, and in fact, the current trend among ARs away from the AR gas system, it would appear a large majority agrees with me.

I bet direct impingement AR's are the best selling semi-auto rifle in the US...

I have shot a lot of piston semi autos, such as the M1A, M1 Garand, AK, and M1 carbine. They are cleaner no doubt but I have not had a Colt AR fail from being dirty either. I guess my point is, dirty only matter if it causes your gun to jam.
 
All I can say is that in 14 years with my present employer we haven't gone through ONE qual without at least on eof the ARs we use malfunctioning. This year I had one failure to feed and the guy next to me had two. All of the weapons were FN or Colts with factory magazines.

BTW, my AK47 digested 650 rounds of Wolf and Yugo surplus before its first cleaning with NO malfunctions.
 
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