What DI doesn't do -

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+1 what Zack Smith said above -- I did my Group's two week Special Forces Basic Combat Course with tons of rounds downrange on the flat range with my issue M4A1 and never did any more cleaning than wiping the bolt and BCG down with a sock I first sprayed with CLP. I also made sure the action was soaking wet. Had zero issues with reliability or stoppages.

My personal AR seems to run just as well with the same level of attention, even up here in AK where it's been run on the range down to about -20 degrees with the oil on the action starting to congeal any time the gun sat for any amount of time.
 
I own both a DI and a piston AR. The piston AR is a cleaner system than the DI. They are both solid, reliable systems and I'd be hard pressed to sell the DI just because I have a piston rifle. MY HK91 uses the roller delayed blowback with a fluted chamber. It is still cleaner than my DI after a day at the range, but not as clean as the piston rifles I own.
 
The propellant change was due to the fact the design propellant would not meet the velocity specs for the spec'd chamber pressure. Nothing to do with cost

Uh huh, keep doing research on this.......


BTW, my AK47 digested 650 rounds of Wolf and Yugo surplus before its first cleaning with NO malfunctions.

did you hit anything with it?

Priceless! But true though! The Ak was not designed to be the tack driver the AR was designed to be.

Many enemy coming....this is no problem, we have much ammunition, you point AK in direction of enemy and pull trigger, bullets fly around enemy like flies around corps....you go now...fight! Got to love that Ruisky mindset!
 
I prefere DI for Ar's. I've experienced less reliability with the piston guns and especially the conversion kits out there. If i really wanted a piston rifle, then I would buy a real piston rifle. Like a FN fs2000, Scar, XCR, ACR, etc.

My Ar's have no problem digesting 500-1000 rounds per a day of training with cleanings at night. I squirt them with a little extra CLP at lunch time.
 
did you hit anything with it?

Wow, that is sooo witty. My AK is plenty accurate to easily get head shots at 100 yards and body hits well beyond that. The range I shoot at doesn't allow "pray and spray" so all 650 rounds were fire slo fire over the course of several range trips. (pretending I even owe you an explanation as NONE of that effects my point in any way) Accuracy has nothing to do with the reliability of the system. So your point is meaningless.


Priceless! But true though! The Ak was not designed to be the tack driver the AR was designed to be.

Many enemy coming....this is no problem, we have much ammunition, you point AK in direction of enemy and pull trigger, bullets fly around enemy like flies around corps....you go now...fight! Got to love that Ruisky mindset!
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That statement shows both a lack of experience and a lack of knowledge of the AK 47s. Outside of 200 yards I would say the accuraccy of the AK is really lacking but inside of that it has plenty of combat accuracy. But I suppose MOA is a LOT more important than a weapon that actually functions.

But I guess I hurt both of your precious feelings when I mentioned my actual experience with your pet rifle. If you would take a second you would see I wasn't making an AR vs AK comparison simply a comparison of the two operating systems. The AR bolt gets extremely hot. The gasses WILL cook off the lubrication and the gas will cake and crust on to the bolt impeding function. The AK does NOT do this. After 650 rounds my AK still had the oil from its initial cleaning on its bolt. The inherit accuraccy of the weapons doesn't have a lot to do with the gas system it has more to do with the rigidity of the receiver and the quality of the barrel but you guys don't let the facts get in the way of childishly taunting someone's post when you disagree with it huh.
 
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Wow, that is sooo witty. My AK is plenty accurate to easily get head shots at 100 yards and body hits well beyond that.

I wasnt trying to be witty. I just have never seen an AK that could consistently do what yours can do. What model do you have?
 
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You know...you always torque 'someone' off when you bash AK's. You'd think you were killing baby seals or something...try the decaf, buddy...no disrespect for your beloved AK. ....just a lot of truth! whoops!

It makes mo difference, you cannot argue with opinion!
 
Then you haven't paid attention or been around them that long. There are plenty of AKs that shoot 2-3 moa. They won't shoot anywhere near the accuracy of an AR but like I said that isn't because of the gas piston. For sporting purposed the AR spanks the AK all day long. It isn't the point of my post. But the operating system of the AR, while it does work, has some serious drawbacks that don't exist with the gas piston. I fired my AK until the barrel was extremely hot yet I could pop the cover off and hold the bolt carrier in my hand. And like I said it retained its lubrication through 650 rounds of shooting. That is two things that WILL NOT happen with a DI gun.

Also, there are plenty of accurate gas piston weapons too. The AK isn't the only gas piston weapon made.

You know...you always torque 'someone' off when you bash AK's. You'd think you were killing baby seals or something...try the decaf, buddy...no disrespect for your beloved AK. ....just a lot of truth! whoops!

It makes mo difference, you cannot argue with opinion!

Really?? You just don't get it do you. I could care less what you say about the AK. I care nothing of your opinion. What I don't like it someone twisting the intent of my post and taunting it because it doesn't suit your opinion. If you can tell me what the accuracy of an AK has to do with the topic or my post I would love to hear it. Since it has NOTHING to do with either I'll try to dumb it down for you a little. I was talking about RELIABILITY. I was also talking about my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. The reliability of the AK is well known and your opinion doesn't effect my personal experience one bit. If you were trying to imply the AR is more accurate than pat yourself on the back Captain Obvious. I'm sure none of us knew that.

Also your post shows a GENUINE lack of integrity. Lets all read YOUR posts and see whose baby seals are getting killed.
 
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I appreciate all the comments.

I didn't say DI wasn't going to get things a little dirty. What kind of dirt that is gets overstated. Burnt powder residue isn't big chunks of sand and grit - it's very small particles of left over hydrocarbon material. Of course, no one has dug up what the average size of the particles are - likely measured in thousandths, and by my experience, much smaller than the design tolerances for the operating system.

Where those add friction to the cycling of the bolt? ONLY on the upper cam track and two lower rails, plus the hammer. The Army specifically calls out the upper cam track to be lubricated GENEROUSLY, meaning loose enough to push around with the finger. That is pretty wet in most users experience.

I never generously lubed any of my firearms, including an HK91, they always worked great, no stoppages. It wasn't until the end of my 22 years Army Reserves that I saw squirt guns of CLP being used on the firing line. Oh gee, thanks, this is going to be a hopeless cleaning job. Well, no, not really at all. What an eye opener. IT WIPED DOWN easier, NO scraping the carbon off because it didn't stick.

What I have learned is that the AR runs better wet - and cleans easier; I have also learned that I spent 22 years cleaning the thing to the point of abuse. What the commander insists be done for inspection and storage is not what the Ordnance branch recommends, and the difference is pretty plain to read and see for those who get some perspective on the issue.

This all started back when the M16 was force fed to the logisitics system with the perfect storm ingredients of 1) a misconception it never needed cleaning 2) not having any cleaning equipment available due to the caliber change 3) the use of Ball powder instead of the designed, recommended, and cleaner Improved powder.

Of course, the answer was to overreact and institute a procedure that even if followed halfheartedly, got some corrective result. It was no help at all that the previously issued piston guns didn't have lubrication standards beyond "light film," meaning enough left over after wiping down. Plus the already onerous, time wasting, and culturally demanded white glove cleanliness.

After all, keep those screw ups busy, or they will get into trouble. Spare me the rationalizations of management. Please don't insist I accept them.
 
Any operating system gets dirty. Whether it is a GP or DI it doesn't change they way the powder is burned or how much is burned. IT only effects where that gas and carbon are routed and deposited. The DI system routes that hot gas and carbon into the bolt carrier. The GP routes it onto the gas piston and vents the rest of it out of the weapon. The AR can and often does work just fine just like other DI weapons. That doesn't mean that the GP isn't a superior design or that it is desirable to pump heat and carbon into your bolt carrier.
 
The AR can and often does work just fine just like other DI weapons.

I would certainly give it more than often. Like dang near always. There are plenty of us on this board and abroad who've never had a malfunction that was related to a damaged or just plain crappy magazine

And I'm really curious what those "other DI weapons" are............:scrutiny:
 
That doesn't mean that the GP isn't a superior design or that it is desirable to pump heat and carbon into your bolt carrier.

Exactly how much heat and carbon is being pumped into the bolt carrier? Take a look at this article comparing the POF piston to a DI AR. Bolt face temperature of POF piston after 3 beta mag dumps with 90 seconds downtime between mag changes - about 110F. Bolt face temperature of DI AR after 3 beta mag dumps with 90 seconds downtime between mag changes - about 110F.

Second piece of evidence: 600 rounds in 60 minutes through a Noveske N4 carbine. Bolt face temperature: 139F. Side of bolt temperature: 153F. (original ambient temperature 71F).

So it looks to me like the "heating up your bolt" argument is moot. A military M16 bolt is made out of Carpenter 158 steel. The idea that this steel is going to be measurably weakened by 153F temperatures is ridiculous.
 
That statement shows both a lack of experience and a lack of knowledge of the AK 47s. Outside of 200 yards I would say the accuraccy of the AK is really lacking but inside of that it has plenty of combat accuracy. But I suppose MOA is a LOT more important than a weapon that actually functions.

With all due respect, 200 yards is ok, but some of use need more. At our monthly tactical rifle matches, we put targets out as far as 425 yards.

At the large, national-level multigun matches like Superstition Mountain and Rocky Mountain 3 Gun, target distances of 300 yards are common, and targets at or beyond 400 yards are to be expected. RM3G in particular has made a tradition of putting a bonus target at or beyond 500 yards for as long as I've attended.

So, yes, an accurate rifle is not just important, but absolutely vital. What's interesting is that despite the protestations of those on the internet, 3Gun competitors overwhelmingly choose AR-pattern rifles. If the AR was as unreliable as people claim, competitive shooters would not run them.

What's particularly notable is the difference in observed, actual stoppages in the field vs. the claimed failures people blather on about when posting on internet forums.

I have yet to experience a stoppage of any sort at a big match where I'm burning through around 400 rounds (including some stages that can and have resulted in the gun getting extremely hot.)

The stoppages that I have experienced (all four of them) have been either magazine or ammunition related. I have yet to experience a stoppage due to the buildup of residue inside the gun, and I'm not exactly the most meticulous person in the world when it comes to cleaning firearms.
 
Any operating system gets dirty. Whether it is a GP or DI it doesn't change they way the powder is burned or how much is burned. IT only effects where that gas and carbon are routed and deposited....

Quoted for truth! Over the years I've heard lots of BS claims about how certain guns run "cleaner" than others, and had some friends make the same claims about their latest rifle purchase. Every single time, these members of the Fellowship of the Piston are shocked when they actually open up the gas systems for cleaning. They all get filthy, it's just a matter of where.

That being said, I've never had a failure with my AR and I've run through 500 rounds at a time before. A "right of the chart" RRA no less...
 
If you can tell me what the accuracy of an AK has to do with the topic or my post I would love to hear it.

I was sort of wondering why you would bring the AK up in the first place in a DI thread.

I fired my AK until the barrel was extremely hot yet I could pop the cover off and hold the bolt carrier in my hand.

Why is that an important feature? I dont think I have ever fired a lot of rounds through any rifle and then suddenly decided to take the bolt out and see how hot it got.

What matters to me is whether the gun runs, or not. If it gets dirty or hot, I dont care as long as it runs.
 
It makes mo difference, you cannot argue with opinion!

HAHAHAHAHA

Lets keep it "HIGH ROAD" guys.

I don't have a piston AR, but have most of the 7.62 (and 7x57 FN49!!!) rifles with a piston.
AK-FAL-M1-M1A
Also have a few semi auto shotguns.
They ALL use a piston of some sort.;)

Both types are just fine and work great.

I've NEVER equated the statement " more parts= less reliability ". And I never will.
A Mercedes Benz has more parts than a FORD/CHEVY, but it is just as reliable:rolleyes:

I just cannot understand why a rifle in THAT piss-ant caliber needs to weigh much more than 5 lbs.
You simply cannot spit-shine this turd any better.
The piston argument was initiated by the powers to be to stop us from demanding a better performing round.
 
If you think DI guns get dirty, you should shoot a delayed blowback! After a few magazines through my HK91, it's like cleaning a muzzle loader. BTW, it runs just fine and shoots accurately in that condition.
 
I just cannot understand why a rifle in THAT piss-ant caliber needs to weigh much more than 5 lbs.
You simply cannot spit-shine this turd any better.
The piston argument was initiated by the powers to be to stop us from demanding a better performing round.

I'll have to agree with ALL of this!

Make an AR in 7mm that weighs in at around 5 or so, and the free world will fall at your feet!
 
With all due respect, 200 yards is ok, but some of use need more. At our monthly tactical rifle matches, we put targets out as far as 425 yards.

And a 4-6 MOA rifle at 200 yards is getting awfully borderline for even "minute of man." (An AK can do better than that, but given the "it's supposed to be cheap" mindset a lot of AK owners bring to the table . . . well, a Century-bungled RomAK shooting cheap Russian ammo with anything up to a 200 fps velocity spread within the same lot is going to be struggling to hold 4 MOA from a mechanical rest, without even considering the shooter's abilities . . .)
 
With all due respect, 200 yards is ok, but some of use need more. At our monthly tactical rifle matches, we put targets out as far as 425 yards.

With all due respect I wish people would stop cutting and pasting one statement without reading or acknowledging others. Please show me where I said the AK would be suitable for that?? I DIDN'T. If you took the time to read my posts you would see I also said,

They won't shoot anywhere near the accuracy of an AR but like I said that isn't because of the gas piston. For sporting purposed the AR spanks the AK all day long.

and

You just don't get it do you. I could care less what you say about the AK. I care nothing of your opinion. What I don't like it someone twisting the intent of my post and taunting it because it doesn't suit your opinion. If you can tell me what the accuracy of an AK has to do with the topic or my post I would love to hear it. Since it has NOTHING to do with either I'll try to dumb it down for you a little. I was talking about RELIABILITY.

The whole accuracy argument is a crutch of the AR fanboys who will do nothing but drool and glow over the AR and won't accept any criticism of it. My only intent, regardless of the baiting, was to express the fact that I prefer the gas piston design over the DI. YOU knuckleheads keep making it an AR vs AK discussion which it just isn't. Since I've expressed my opinion, which is what the OP seemed to be asking for, I'll let you guys wallow in your self righteousness and tap out. Sorry I touched your Golden Cow.
 
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+1 what Zack Smith said above -- I did my Group's two week Special Forces Basic Combat Course with tons of rounds downrange on the flat range with my issue M4A1 and never did any more cleaning than wiping the bolt and BCG down with a sock I first sprayed with CLP. I also made sure the action was soaking wet. Had zero issues with reliability or stoppages.

My personal AR seems to run just as well with the same level of attention, even up here in AK where it's been run on the range down to about -20 degrees with the oil on the action starting to congeal any time the gun sat for any amount of time.
+10

The DI rifle is plenty reliable, if you clean it right. By cleaning it right I mean DO NOT INSPECTION CLEAN YOUR RIFLE

Thats what destroys the rifles. After a while you start taking off the metal coatings. My M16 and all my buddies M16s never failed in combat during two tours in Iraq. We just wiped down the bolt, carrier, chamber and upper reciever.

This took all of about 5 to 10 minutes every other day.
 
With all due respect I wish people would stop cutting and pasting one statement without reading or acknowledging others. Please show me where I said the AK would be suitable for that?? I DIDN'T. If you took the time to read my posts you would see I also said,

I did read your posts. If a rifle that's accurate to 200 yards is all you need, there's certainly nothing wrong with that. I'm just pointing out that there are many people (myself included) who need rifles that are both more accurate than an AK, and quite frankly, dead reliable, and that for those people, the choice is overwhelmingly the AR-pattern rifle.

The whole accuracy argument is a crutch of the AR fanboys

This really frankly makes no sense. For my purposes, I require a rifle that has a higher level of acceptable accuracy than what most AK-pattern rifles could hope to deliver. The fact that I require the ability to hit a popper at 400 yards is really a rather odd thing to use as a crutch. In fact, that particular line of thinking strikes me as a bit of a non-starter.

who will do nothing but drool and glow over the AR and won't accept any criticism of it.

See, here's the thing. When I buy a rifle, it's to fill a particular niche. I don't buy a gun because my identity or self esteem are wrapped up in it. I need a gun that can do X, Y, or Z. Therefore I purchase a firearm that does X,Y, and Z. If my requirement for an accurate, reliable rifle that functions under field conditions can be met with another design at a cheaper price point, or with more advantages, I would buy that rifle. I'm only interested in the end level of performance.

There are plenty of things one can criticize on the AR platform. It just so happens that in my experience, and the experience of other shooters, that reliability isn't really one of them.

My only intent, regardless of the baiting, was to express the fact that I prefer the gas piston design over the DI.

That's all well and good, as far as it goes. But the claimed drawbacks of the DI system are, quite frankly, overblown, and there are at least a couple of drawbacks to the piston driven systems that are worth discussing.

YOU knuckleheads keep making it an AR vs AK discussion which it just isn't. Since I've expressed my opinion, which is what the OP seemed to be asking for, I'll let you guys wallow in your self righteousness and tap out. Sorry I touched your Golden Cow.

You were the one that brought up the AK-pattern guns as a counterpoint example, so of course people are going to take issue with that.

In the end, you're not really touching my sacred cow, as I don't really have a sacred cow. Show me a gun that does the same thing an AR does, at a similar price point, with a comparable level of accuracy, after market support, and equal or better ergonomics, and I'll happily listen to what you have to say. :)
 
Show me a gun that does the same thing an AR does, at a similar price point, with a comparable level of accuracy, after market support, and equal or better ergonomics, and I'll happily listen to what you have to say.

And that pretty well "nutshells" why AR's are so popular today.

My Armalite M-15A2C is 100% with quality mags (P-mags, these days), and can pull duty from praire dog shooting to home defense, and satisfy a number of other requirements in the middle. It does this with, as Justin said, better ergonomics, lighter weight and at a more reasonable price point than other rifles. As far as comparing it with an AK, even the 5.56mm cartridge is better suited to these uses than the Russkie round, for reasons I can expound on if someone doesn't understand.

As to how this applies to the original purpose of this thread, with a rifle that runs perfectly using DI, I see no reason to add the cost and weight of a piston driven upper, especially considering the bits people have mentioned about the myraid manufacturers and non-standardization of it. And there are issues with GP inducing stresses on parts that were never an issue with DI, and could be problematic.
 
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