What distance to practice

[Kleanbore]

If one intends to practice drills for defensive shooting, I do not think that practicing at "a distance"--any distance--is really the best way to go about it.

Think about it: if you are the victim of a surpise attack in a parking lot or parking garbage, the distance is going to be what it is....unlike target practice, in whig the distance is planned and known in advance.

The shooter in this video, who is not standing at any fixed distance from any target, has no idea about the distance to his target until his instructor calls out, without any kind of "ready--get set--go", which target to shoot at.

One may find it difficult to find places to practice that way. I suggest that most people could find a way, and that combining that kind of drill with some stationary shooting and perhaps some air-soft practice would be helpful.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Or take a look at this recent video...

http://wvmetronews.com/2015/02/19/video-released-in-pharmacy-shooting/

Note the number of "no shoots" in that situation as well ... sometimes in real life, it's important what you DON'T shoot. And notice how not static the situation is. Moving, moving, everyone is moving... . Not to mention this range is two-way. Being shot at can mess with your skilz.

Trainer John Farnam likes to say ... "When it's least expected, you're elected."
http://defense-training.com/dti/when-its-least-expected-2/

 

[ACP]

Whoo boy, that's a doozey of a question.

But Gary4v50 nailed it right off the bat -- arms length (two feet) to the longest shot in your home. Anything else is pretty much run like he** distance.

And what Matthew Temkin said.

 

[strambo]

Great video Fred, thanks for posting. It is a visual representation of a statistically typical gunfight. Very close, movement, hits & misses, no instant incapacitation.

Notice how the Pharmacist shoots a round or two then stops to asses? Then he takes an incoming round and decides he needs to shoot more.

This is a common failure of the training most people do, to shoot once or twice and inspect their handy-work. I've seen it a lot, I once rigged some 3D targets to fall only when a small hidden balloon was hit. Interesting to see two shots, pause, two shots, pause... In conjunction, it goes hand in hand with an expectation that shooting someone and hitting them (even center chest, even through the heart) will result in them falling down ala Hollywood.

Though the perp was fatally shot, he continued to fight, move, and shoot back. This is why you need to shoot them to the ground. Train to shoot bursts of fire until the threat is gone. Train to to adjust your focus from the torso to the head if they are still up. An initial 2-4 rd burst to the chest followed by a head transition (no pause) would have ended this likely without the Pharmacist ever taking the incoming shot.

I'll give a shout out to member Matt Temkin, he has a Paladin Press video titled "Shoot Him To The Ground" and demonstrates what I'm talking about perfectly.

 

[Girodin]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=658906437568880&substory_index=0&id=197061490420046

This post from Alias by Ken Hackathron made me think of this thread. Ken has a lot wisdom when it comes to firearms and training.

 

[jrdolall]

Shooting at a stationary target, at a known distance is working on your marksmanship and we all need to do that. It's no different than archery. Have you ever gone bow hunting and misjudged the distance to a nice buck? I know I have. The deer is generally standing still and is unlikely to shoot back and we still often misjudge the distance.
Shooting while moving, at a target that is also moving and possibly shooting back is not something I can really practice. I do practice shooting while I am moving, from different positions AND off-hand but I don't really have a way to simulate a moving target much less one that is shooting back. My ability to hit an aggressor (at any distance) will hopefully remain unknown...forever.

Does soiled underwear help or hinder your accuracy?

 

[Girodin]

Shooting while moving, at a target that is also moving and possibly shooting back is not something I can really practice

You cannot do it with live fire. That doesn't mean you can't do it. Force on force training is regularly conducted with both simunitions and air soft. Air soft is the most accessible for most people. It can be a great tool and make for good force on force training when done properly.

 

[joem1945]

I practice from 25yds to 150 yds on steel targets with many of my pistols.

 

[btg3]

If you are just punching paper at the range when you practice, participation in IDPA or similar will greatly expand your horizon for SD competency. It certainly took me to the next level and continues to be fun in the extreme.

 

[Crayfish]

Lots of good discussion points from people. I really appreciate everyone's input. I have to say I do my best to be prepared but, rely heavily on my situational awareness all the time. I also stay in physical shape, I agree that is very important as well.
Like some have said most of us don't have time and money for "seal" training. I have had police academy training and that included hand to hand with and without a firearm. I carried a full size 45 as a duty weapon for years and now I just carry a 2" 38spl. with one speed strip. Why? I am very fast to get it on target. More so than any other set up I have tried short of open carry. And it works at those very uncomfortable bad breath ranges and is very difficult for the BG to grab. I still think about trying different guns, holsters etc. as things in society seem to keep going south but, for now that is MY comfort level and of course we all have to find where that is for ourselves. I shoot about 100 rounds a month and vary the distance, angle, grip,etc. so I at least maintain some level of proficiency with my weapon. Good to hear what others do and get some more ideas, Thanks

 

[SFsc616171]

re: distance

The OP said:
"I practice with the Ruger at 3 and 5 yards and the 40 out to 7 and 10 yards. "

Could you, since you put yourself in a box, shoot the Ruger, at 10 yards?

Oh, on Monday, I carry a 9mm Glock.
Oh, on Tuesday, I carry a .357 Sig.
Oh, on Wednesday, I carry a .45 acp Rock Island.
Oh, on Thursday, I carry a 10mm Wilson.
Oh, on Friday, I carry a .40 Hi Power.
Oh, on Saturday, I carry a .380 acp Taurus.

But, on Sunday, 'cause it's go-to-meetin' day, I carry a .38 Special snubnose.

What do you suppose would happen, if you weren't mindful, and switched up your 'carry calendar'?

What do you suppose would happen, IF, you chose ONE caliber and firearm, for carry, and the rest for the range or the barn?

 

[loose noose]

Having been a police officer, and having been involved directly, in several shootings, I can verify that you do revert back to your training. We trained at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, and 25 yards, back in the 70's. At 3,5,and 7 yards we fired rapid fire, reloaded and fired again. You might note we used multiple targets as well. At least every quarter we had a tactical shoot at night, using flashlights, as well as spotlights, at unknown ranges in cover of our patrol units, with the faux suspects using partial cover, behind cardboard barriers.

One thing I noticed is that during the night time shoots, I shot much higher than during the daytime shoots, which I believe is quite normal, especially if your adrenaline is pumping, and you are trying to get the proper sight alignment, therefore your front sight is generally elevated as you fire off the rounds. Just my take, as I give handgun, and shotgun classes out here in the desert.

 

[Sav .250]

Seems to me ,most encounters are "in your face type." There are exceptions of course.

Practice for the unknown(distance.") Meaning, cover your bets. Out to what ever might come along.

Learn you and your weapons capabilities. Through practice you`ll find the sweet spot.

Course the unknown is still out there. Plus, you may never get the chance to "draw" on the pert cause his weapon is already on you .

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Statistically the chances of getting into a gunfight for the average CC proponent is very low. The chances of that confrontation being more than 30' away is so small I can't compute it.

Train for the most likely scenario...shooting handguns and training SD at over 30' is never done in our house by my Wife or I. most SD events using guns occur at less than 21'. I train between arms length and 30' and spend more time moving off center, drawing while moving, and shooting multiple shots to target than I do punching paper at 25 yards.

The most likely SD shooting will occur at under 21'. Train for reality and the odds.

VooDoo

 

[Joea132]

I have a range setup in my backyard where the first set of targets is 35 yards from my back deck. I practice drawing and putting rounds on target at this range as quickly as possible. I shoot at an old fire engine fuel tank that I cut and welded into a bullet trap. It's approximately 3' wide by 2.5' tall.

My reasoning is that if I am able to draw and get consistent hits at that range with my 45ACP, anything closer should be no problem. One of my favorite drills is a reloading drill where I draw, fire 2, reload, and fire 2 more at that distance. If I can do it that far out, I'm good for close range.

 

[howards]

A 3x5 card...no
take a 11x8 magazine up to your chest you will see that it cover petty much all your chest
put 5 shots out of 5 shots into that taget with speed from any distance you are practicing from and I belive your good to go

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Joea132:

My reasoning is that if I am able to draw and get consistent hits at that range with my 45ACP, anything closer should be no problem.

See posts #12 and #13.

 

[Jeff22]

What distance to practice?

Tom Givens just released a 3rd edition of his book Fighting Smarter.

My favorite part of the book was Chapter 13 which was called "training priorities".

Mr Givens for years operated a training facility in Memphis called Rangemaster. Memphis has a very high rate of violent crime, and so many of his students were involved in defensive shooting situations.

Based on his study of the incidents his students were involved in, and on studies done by the FBI and DEA involving incidents their agents were involved in, he reached some conclusions.

I won't give away all of his data, although I think it has been discussed elsewhere on this forum (you should buy his book) but --

Practice fast presentation of the handgun and be able to place several quick shots into an anatomically important area of the target at a distance of 0 to 7 yards.

That should be your first training priority.

(In general I think all of his conclusions are also valid for the majority of confrontations that uniformed LEOs get involved with, except for the drawing from concealment part)

 

[brownie0486]

90% under 30 feet
10% "at distance", usually 100 yrds on milk jugs.

 

[Ankeny]

I do a lot of shooting on the move, wide transitions, etc. at 15-20 yards when practicing for USPSA. Practicing markmanship skills at that yardage does make it easier to shoot fast and accurately when you "round the corners off" for the sake of speed at hoser distance.

 

[huntsman]

My 2 carry handguns are the S&W M&P shield , 40 cal. and the Ruger LCP .380. I practice with the Ruger at 3 and 5 yards and the 40 out to 7 and 10 yards. How far out could you use these before it would not be considered self defense ?

I shoot my CCW guns(LCP is EDC) from 10 yards, my hunting handgun 25-40 yards.

 

[btg3]

take a 11x8 magazine up to your chest you will see that it cover petty much all your chest

I'd like to see the gun !!!

 

[strambo]

Hah Hah, maybe a 14.7mm rifle magazine?

 

[RustyShackelford]

SEAL training: shoot-don't shoot .....

US Navy SEAL & former CO(commanding officer) of SEAL/specwar training, Denver Rourke wrote in his non fiction book about a SEAL course applicant that was cut from selection/training because he would not shoot at a training target.
The sailor later said the target, a young male holding a rifle looked just like his younger brother.
Rourke made this point to stress the importance of skill training & for developing the proper mindset/reactions in critical incidents.

Rusty

 

[orionengnr]

A few of these posts that go on and on about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and ten other kinds of hands-on training come across as a bit condescending, and were obviously written by someone who has yet to experience the um, joys of middle (and older) age, multiple surgeries, etc...

You'll get there one day, son...God willing.