What do you think about .22 TCM? Also, 1911 or PT92?

[TTv2]

This is kind of a two part question.

I've bounced around in my head what my next handguns purchases will be and one that I keep coming back to is a steel frame 9mm to see how much lower the recoil can be with them compared to a polymer pistol. Been focusing on the Taurus PT-92 because of its price and quality, but lately the .22 TCM and 9mm combo 1911's that Rock Island make are coming to mind.

I've had a passive interest in .22 TCM given its ability to shoot a 40 grain bullet over 2000 fps, but the 9mm in a steel frame 1911 would be fun to shoot too.

Do you guys think .22 TCM has any merits that make it worth owning? What benefits do you think it offers vs other semi auto handgun calibers and do they outweigh the cons of .22 TCM?

Also, between a 1911 9mm with 17 rd capacity and a Taurus PT92, which would be a better shooter in regards to speed of shooting and lower recoil?

EDIT: For the record the 1911 would be a doublestack, not the usual single stack.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

May be worth considering an older CZ75 also.

I think the PT may have less felt recoil as it is wider in the hand and likely will weigh more when fully loaded.

The TCM is a neat idea but I worry about ammo in the long term. That often isn't an issue to me as I reload but I don't see that being a fun round to reload. So, just not sure the juice is worth the squeeze there. However, do still have the 9mm option if the TCM doesn't work out so not all bad. Tough call and comes down to personal preference. I would likely go with the PT (and I'm not a Taurus fan but that one is solid) as I like that option a lot better than a SA.

 

[Tallball]

I have a Taurus PT99, which is the same thing as the PT92, except with adjustable sights.

I also have an RIA 9mm, sold under another brand name, Citidal.

I like them both; they are both good shooters.

The Taurus has a wider grip, due to the double-stack magazine. This gives you "more to hang onto" and probably helps with recoil a bit, unless your hands are small, in which case it will probably be too bulky. It has an aluminum frame, like almost all Beretta 92 derivatives. It's still a big heavy pistol. Mine has nice big adjustable sights and an okay trigger: pretty good, but not great. I bought it brand-new back in 1990 or so. It's given me no problems.

The RIA is a typical modern 9mm 1911. The sights are bigger and easier to see than the old-fashioned "GI sights" (which are so small that they are difficult for me to use). It also has the extended beavertail, which I prefer.These are both nice additions to the "standard GI" 1911 which don't cost much and are useful. It's not as bulky as the Beretta copy. A lot of that is probably the single-stack magazine. It's made of steel, so it's fairly heavy. The single-action trigger is a bit better than the Beretta copy. Like almost all 1911's, it's single-action only, which doesn't really matter for a range toy. It uses several different brands of 9mm 1911 magazines just fine. I bought it used at the LGS within the past year or so for around $300. It's given me no problems.

I like them both. Both of them have milder recoil than a comparable polymer 9mm pistol, and significantly milder than a smaller polymer 9mm. My primary recommendation would be get whichever one fits your hands better. You also have to ask yourself if you prefer a double-stack DA/SA pistol, or a single-stack SA pistol. Mine are both nice range pistols, and either one would certainly be adequate for SD.

I like them both, but as the previous poster said, I would prefer a steel CZ75 derivative to either. EAA imports the Tanfoglio version and calls it the "Witness". I have a couple of Israeli surplus ones that were just called something like the T75. For comparison's sake, it's sort of like a slightly smaller steel Beretta, but with better ergonomics for me.

If there's no pictures, it didn't happen.

TaurusPT99

• Tallball
• Sep 4, 2018

Citadel 1911 9mm

• Tallball
• Apr 6, 2019

 

[Hasaf]

I recently purchased a 22tcm rifle. However, due to problems at the range I use, I haven't had an opportunity to shoot it. If I like it, I will add the CZ inspired pistol.

On paper, the idea looks great.

 

[drband]

I have (and like) a .22TCM/9mm combo from RIA (commander size--4.25" barrel). I do not have experience with the PT92 or PT99, though I'd like to have one of those.

The RIA may be the most fun gun I shoot. A steel framed 1911 soaks up 9mm recoil and the .22TCM has so little recoil, it feels a lot like shooting .22LR. Ammo should be your consideration. .22TCM factory ammo from Armscor is your only retail option for that cartridge. I knew going in that I would reload .22TCM and I do that now, not shooting factory ammo at all any more. I find my reloads "better" than factory with more power/velocity, better neck tension, and more consistent velocity (as chrono'd). No problems at all shooting 9mm in that pistol, soft recoil (relative to other 9mm pistols), very good trigger, comfortable size and grip for my hand, good mechanical construction and finish to the frame and slide. I have the double-stack version and find it a good fit in my average sized hand, giving a wider than normal 1911 backstrap. RIA mags work the best, but the MecGar DS mags work perfectly for 9mm, not so much for .22TCM, though they can be modified to be consistent for the .22TCM cartridge (spring weight lessened and feed lips contoured to match the RIA mag).

The 9mm version is very accurate if I pay attention to fundamentals! Same with .22TCM, but there is always a basketball-sized fireball with that cartridge and I battle flinching for the first 4-5 shots. As long as you know and are prepared for it, the .22TCM is a hoot! I always get looks and questions at the range when I shoot it. I've never had anyone shoot it that did not come away with a huge smile on their face and commenting "I've got to get one of these!"

I would like to find and shoot a .22TCM rifle since I reload the cartridge. They are few and far between.

Other:
I have the RIA MS double-stack combo, the base model, no rail, plain iron front sight, rear adjustable sight (says LPA on the rear). I replaced the front with a Dawson Precision fiber optic sight that is great and works perfectly with the stock rear sight. I also upgraded the mainspring housing to a blued steel EGW MSH that I like a lot. The original was black painted aluminum. The biggest upgrade was to replace the black plastic factory grips (uncomfortable for me, logo was quite sharp) with Stoner CNC G10 grips (well worth the expense, excellent fit, very nice texture).

None of the upgrades were very expensive and did not push the cost past the upgraded RIA factory models of this pistol. The bonus for me is that I got exactly the pistol I want!

Reloading the .22TCM is not difficult, but there is a bit of a learning curve vs standard straight walled pistol cartridges. If you plan to shoot it a lot (I do), plan on reloading.

Good luck with your choice.

 

[1KPerDay]

Also, between a 1911 9mm with 17 rd capacity and a Taurus PT92, which would be a better shooter in regards to speed of shooting and lower recoil?

Lots of variables here. Generally a very nice 1911/2011 trigger is going to be about as fast as it gets, but you’re not talking about very nice custom triggers. The Taurus/Beretta has a longish reset which may slow you down compared to most 1911s. But it may not. And the 1911 will likely weigh significantly more which may help.
However recoil is subjective and some people shoot some guns better than others and vise versa. Jerry Miculek can shoot a DA revolver faster than I can shoot my best 1911.

I suggest you try both of your options out and see what you think.
My guess is, based on your choices, you will be able to make either one shoot as well as you are willing to take the time to practice with it.

 

[TTv2]

For the record, the RIA 1911 will be a doublestack 9mm/.22TCM that holds 17 rds. I think everyone here saying the Taurus 92 being "wider" may have thought I was looking at a single stack 1911.

 

[drband]

For the record, the RIA 1911 will be a doublestack 9mm/.22TCM that holds 17 rds. I think everyone here saying the Taurus 92 being "wider" may have thought I was looking at a single stack 1911.

In case you care, the RIA DS uses a standard 1911 MSH, sear, and disconnector. The EGW MSH I added dropped in perfectly using the internals from the factory one. It fits as well as the original but neither are blended into the frame like a pistol smith would do.
The trigger and magazine release are sized to fit the wide frame and are based on the Para DS frame. There are a few aftermarket Para DS triggers and hammers listed on Brownells’ site.
I’m pretty sure the hammer and safety are also standard GI-type parts.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

The 92 and its variants have a lotta fans. But I would take the 1911 because I’m not a big fan of the open-top design associated with the 92 and its relatives.

I know my opinion is probably unpopular but there it is.

1911 as my vote.

 

[WestKentucky]

My vote is to do both. My current PT99 is my 4th. I have had basically every option you can get and they all function flawlessly. My only complaint with the middle 2 was that they have the rail which I don’t like, but they were acquired in trade so I didn’t fuss much. The other thing is finding a holster to fit the Taurus properly as most Taurus have a “nose” on the trigger guard which the berettas don’t have. That nose gets in the way of paddle holsters. Taurus mags are expensive, but GI mags work with a little dremmel tool finesse work around the mag release slot. If you buy a PT99 then buy polished blue, they are older and are generally a bit better finished internally. They are aluminum alloy frames, have some heft but not nearly what steel would. Mine have all been very accurate.

to the TCM...

It will be one of the next pistols I buy. Having researched a lot expecting to buy one last year I figured out that RIA is top notch on bang for the buck. I have seen no real complaints on the TCM aside from ammunition supply. I do wish others would jump in for both ammo and gun manufacture, but seems it may not happen. Ruger would be the one I would expect to do it if anyone does, but I don’t expect that to happen as they are already somewhat foundering on oddball cartridges with the .327 being a big chunk of the lineup.

My suggestion, though is to do both. The guns are fundamentally different enough that you will enjoy both for different reasons. If you choose to only do 1, then you could split the difference and go with an upgraded Witness pistol.

I need to look around again and see if anybody is making aftermarket conversion barrels for my 9mms because I really do want a TCM in my safe.

 

[drband]

My vote is to do both. My current PT99 is my 4th. I have had basically every option you can get and they all function flawlessly. My only complaint with the middle 2 was that they have the rail which I don’t like, but they were acquired in trade so I didn’t fuss much. The other thing is finding a holster to fit the Taurus properly as most Taurus have a “nose” on the trigger guard which the berettas don’t have. That nose gets in the way of paddle holsters. Taurus mags are expensive, but GI mags work with a little dremmel tool finesse work around the mag release slot. If you buy a PT99 then buy polished blue, they are older and are generally a bit better finished internally. They are aluminum alloy frames, have some heft but not nearly what steel would. Mine have all been very accurate.

to the TCM...

It will be one of the next pistols I buy. Having researched a lot expecting to buy one last year I figured out that RIA is top notch on bang for the buck. I have seen no real complaints on the TCM aside from ammunition supply. I do wish others would jump in for both ammo and gun manufacture, but seems it may not happen. Ruger would be the one I would expect to do it if anyone does, but I don’t expect that to happen as they are already somewhat foundering on oddball cartridges with the .327 being a big chunk of the lineup.

My suggestion, though is to do both. The guns are fundamentally different enough that you will enjoy both for different reasons. If you choose to only do 1, then you could split the difference and go with an upgraded Witness pistol.

I need to look around again and see if anybody is making aftermarket conversion barrels for my 9mms because I really do want a TCM in my safe.

There are conversion “kits” for Glocks and for 1911s: https://armscor.com/firearms/ria/conversion-kits/
I have no idea how well they work.

 

[MikeInOr]

I have been looking at the RIA TAC Ultra FS HC(high capacity = double stack) in 9mm / 22 tcm for as my next gun purchase for a while.

The double stack 1911... I.e. 2011 frames are designed around a double stack .45 acp mag form factor which by default is going to be thicker than a double stack 9mm form factor... I believe.

While I don't have a PT92 or ever remember even holding a PT92 but I have owned a Beretta 92 INOX for 25+ years now and have more trigger time with it than any other gun. The Beretta 92 has a pretty big chunky grip by itself, bigger than a lot of other double stack 9mm's available. I have several friends with smaller hands that really don't like my 92 with its wrap around Hogue grips that make the grip even bigger.

I feel the 92 DA/SA configuration is much better suited to a combat / defense gun than a SA 1911. I think that a 1911 is a much better range, target, competition gun than a 92 though. My 92 INOX has a good trigger on it for a 92 but it is no where as nice as the worked over triggers on my 1911's. I can smoke my buddies with my .45acp 1911's at the target tree going against any of their plastic fantastic 9mm's. With my Beretta 92 though we are much more evenly matched... even though the Beretta is shooting a softer round and has more than double the magazine capacity of my .45 1911. The trigger is definitely one aspect that make me slower than my 1911's. The milled factory Beretta sites which are not easily up-gradable is another big disadvantage to the 92.

I don't think that a .22 tcm has a lot of practical use... but man they sure do sound like fun and I would really love to have one! To me the .22 tcm is what the fn 5.7x28mm should have been and the .22 tcm seems like an better round... on paper at least. My boss has a FN 57 and it is a hoot to shoot but what makes it impressive to me is the number of high velocity rounds in such an incredibly lite weight package which is still incredibly controllable. To me a heavy 1911 tcm is in a completely different class than the ultra-lite FN57 though... they are just very different guns with very different capabilities and uses.

I have looked at .22 tcm 9r barrels for other guns and they are cost prohibitive, to me, for a range toy that eats expensive ammo, or at least expensive brass. The conversion barrels also take the .22 tcm 9r round that uses the same 22 tcm case but has a shorter OAL accomplished by seating the bullet a fair bit deeper. So to me the RIA Tac Ultra FS HC is a really practical way of getting the double stack 9mm I want to really slaughter my buddies at the target tree while also getting the .22 tcm that I would really love to play with. My problem is I can't find any place close to me where I can even hold one no less shoot one. I would really like to feel how the 2011 width grip fits my long hand and get an idea of how good the trigger is. If it takes a few hundred dollars to get the trigger to how I like it for a 1911 I am starting to encroach on the price of a used 2011... and I would REALLY prefer a stainless 2011 instead of a carbon steel 2011... of course, at what price though? If I find the model RIA that I am looking for in a gun store somewhere it will most likely come home with me but I am not willing to order one and end up paying above retail for the RIA without having ever held one.

After all this consideration CZ came out with their Dan Wesson DWX which is a CZ 75 style gun with a 1911 style SAO trigger and the beloved 1911 style safety (no grip safety though). https://www.guns.com/news/2019/10/22/new-dan-wesson-dwx-when-you-cross-a-cz-75-and-a-1911 -- https://danwessonfirearms.com/product/dwx/
While it is considerably more expensive than the RIA is it cheaper than most 9mm 2011's. I have read that 2011 9mm's can be finicky about magazines... I have high expectations that the DWX will be incredibly reliable. The DWX really seems like an excellent cross breed of CZ 75 reliability, using CZ 75 cheap magazines with the 1911 style trigger I love!

 

[mljdeckard]

Ok, first of all, Mike beat me to the Dan Wesson DWX announcement. I just had a very fat carrot dangled in front of me to do some overseas contracting work, and if I do it, I am pre-paying for a DWX.

Ok, so a few years ago, I decided I would rather run 9mm than .45. (For pretty much the same reasons the FBI just went back.) I am a 1911 guy, for better or worse. I didn't want to pay full-price for an STI, and Para-Ordnance had just gone away. So I did some homework on the RIA and decided to give it a look.

(I haven't looked lately, but RIA was making all of their 9mms as "22 TCM that also converts to 9mm." They were trying to make the cartridge stick. Still are I guess.)

Not only is it the same size frame as a 2011 .45, my Para SF-45 mags snap right into it. The same Hogue finger-groove wrap-around grip goes on both of them.

Mine had problems. They pretty much all went back to he extractor. I sent it back, and they worked on it. It was better, but not perfect. I bought a Wilson Combat Bulletproof Extractor and had a local guy put it in. Now it is dead-nuts reliable with 9mm, and pretty good with the TCM round as long as I only load fewer than about eleven rounds in the magazine. (I was at SHOT in January, and I talked to their head gunsmith. He said he would make me another extractor just for the TCM if I send it back to him. I have been too busy, I will probably just live with it as-is.) I changed out the sights for a Hi-Viz set with a good hook on the rear sight, and a big dot in the front. (It takes standard Novak 1911 cuts, btw. They aren't agreeing with me too well, I will probably switch them out for a regular set with a fiber-optic front.) As far as handling and shooting, like I say, I was already well-practiced with a .45 2011, so that wasn't an adjustment. If I saw a new shooter with small hands looking at one, I might steer them somewhere else. I will probably put on a bigger thumb safety, it's difficult to always hit the stock one. My other 1911s have bigger ones.

To compare with a T-92. The T-92 might have somewhat less recoil, but not much. They are both full-size 9mm autos, but the T-92 probably has a lighter slide from the cut. When I have used a T-92 or an M-9, I have always shot it single-action. As in, I cheated on the range and cocked the hammer to qualify, anmd when I was required to carry it empty, I left it off-safe to be able to load and rack it leaving the hammer cocked. I owned a T-92 in 1993, it had problems. (The DA trigger was slipping, the hammer wasn't coming all the way back before falling.)

As for how the TCM shoots.....it has somewhat less recoil than a 9mm. It has more than my 1911 .22 LR conversion kit. It's fun, it makes a loud bang. I've never shot it at night, I hear it makes a spectacular flash. I am currently stockpiling brass to reload it, I am actually curious to know what drband's recipe is, most of the online stuff I read about reloading it fails to match the advertised velocity of the factory ammo. If the cartridge goes away, and I just HAVE to keep shooting it, I can form brass from .223 brass. It will probably turn a jackrabbit into a fine pink mist. I don't plan to use it defensively. Overall, it it wasn't part of the packaged deal with the 9mm, I doubt I would ever get one. I already had .22s for practice.

 

[drband]

I am actually curious to know what drband's recipe is

I will send you a PM in a bit for my load work-up. W296/H110 is the powder.

I suspect your poor extraction may have to do with sticky cases and not so much the extractor. Fred Craig (cartridge inventor) recommends lubing the cases (all of them, even factory ammo). I use Hornady One-Shot Case Lube-- the same as I use when resizing the TCM cases. It dries to touch and is not sticky afterward, though you can "feel" it when you handle the cases. No problems at all with extraction at all when using it. Definitely inconsistent without it, as you describe.

 

[bikerdoc]

Get 1911 first and foremost. Why? Cause all the reasons above.

 

[worldtraveler119]

So a question about the .22 TCM. Is it the same as .22 WMR? Is it interchangeable?
TIA

 

[FL-NC]

I think it is a boutique caliber, with the potential to go the way of all of the other boutique calibers- fading into obscurity, with a small following and difficulty obtaining ammunition at a reasonable price.

 

[drband]

So a question about the .22 TCM. Is it the same as .22 WMR? Is it interchangeable?
TIA

Completely different cartridge. No similarities other than bullet diameter.

 

[Olympus]

The 22TCM will only ever be a novelty.

 

[barnetmill]

I would like to see a TCM based on the .45 ACP in either .22 or .32 caliber.

 

[Unemployedshooter]

I have a RI MAPP in 22 TCM 9R and a RI 1911 in 22 TCM. They are both a blast to shoot and the muzzle flash makes for great photos. The 1911 came with a 9mm barrel. Had to buy a Tanfoglio 9mm barrel for the MAPP (CZ 75 clone). Based on my google digging, you can shoot a 22 TCM 9R in a 22 TCM, but not the other way around. The 9R is slightly shorter so that it can fit in modified polymer semiautos.

 

[drband]

I have a RI MAPP in 22 TCM 9R and a RI 1911 in 22 TCM. They are both a blast to shoot and the muzzle flash makes for great photos. The 1911 came with a 9mm barrel. Had to buy a Tanfoglio 9mm barrel for the MAPP (CZ 75 clone). Based on my google digging, you can shoot a 22 TCM 9R in a 22 TCM, but not the other way around. The 9R is slightly shorter so that it can fit in modified polymer semiautos.

You are correct. The 22TCM9R will fit in a 9mm magazine; the 22TCM will not--it requires a .38Super magazine. The 9R projectile is more stubby and 2gr lighter (38gr vs.40 gr). If the gun will fit a 38Super round into the mag, the regular 22TCM should work. My RIA 22TCM/9mm combo DS uses .38Super magazines. How do I know? I had a problem with a RIA factory mag (base plate would not stay on) and CS sent me a replacement mag--a MecGar .38Super DS magazine! I inquired as to differences and RIA told me they are functionally the same (however, I found the spring to be much stiffer, so I cut it down to a similar weight for better function with the 22TCM cartridge). The MecGar mags work perfectly with 9mm rounds. And mostly OK with the 22TCM rounds. The feed lips are different than the RIA branded factory mags. I may get around to modifying my MecGar mags to match. (or may not!)

 

[Hasaf]

I have a RI MAPP in 22 TCM 9R and a RI 1911 in 22 TCM. They are both a blast to shoot and the muzzle flash makes for great photos. The 1911 came with a 9mm barrel. Had to buy a Tanfoglio 9mm barrel for the MAPP (CZ 75 clone). Based on my google digging, you can shoot a 22 TCM 9R in a 22 TCM, but not the other way around. The 9R is slightly shorter so that it can fit in modified polymer semiautos.

RIA no longer appears to have the MAPP in 22tcm on their website. I have the 22tcm rifle, but no pistols in 22tcm.

 

[drband]

RIA no longer appears to have the MAPP in 22tcm on their website. I have the 22tcm rifle, but no pistols in 22tcm.

Ever get a chance to shoot your 22tcm rifle?

 

[Hasaf]

Frankly, no. The city range here was closed about a year go for maintenance. Not too long ago a guy told me where the next city range was (funny enough, the spouse of a local politician on a handshaking tour. She was obviously getting annoyed with her husband taking the opportunity to talk guns).

I kept planning to go to that range, then this lockdown closed all of the ranges.

One of the guys at my lodge (AF&AM) knows I am a gun nut, he owns the gun shop where I do my transfers. He has invited me to visit him at his house and use the range there. I have never taken him up on it through. When this lockdown ends I may