What Happens If They Pass A Law And No One Obeys?
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Millwright
Member
Reality is any law not voluntarily observed by the majority of the governed is basically unenforcable.
Can any government contravene this reality ? Of course, but at an extravagant cost - in manpower - and liberty. IOW we'd have to change our society - and its founding precepts - beyond recognition.
What the "Drive 55" law did was increase contempt among drivers for speed restrictions not congruent with either the engineering or human concerns of those using the IH system. But one - speed - is a "privildge" the other is a "right" - of all humanity - endorsed by our Constitution. But human nature being what it is, contempt in one area of law spills over to others. And this attitude is as prevalent in the halls of government as anywhere else.......>MW
Can any government contravene this reality ? Of course, but at an extravagant cost - in manpower - and liberty. IOW we'd have to change our society - and its founding precepts - beyond recognition.
What the "Drive 55" law did was increase contempt among drivers for speed restrictions not congruent with either the engineering or human concerns of those using the IH system. But one - speed - is a "privildge" the other is a "right" - of all humanity - endorsed by our Constitution. But human nature being what it is, contempt in one area of law spills over to others. And this attitude is as prevalent in the halls of government as anywhere else.......>MW
lonegunman
Member
Calling me simplistic because I think the government will come for your guns is pretty laughable. These people will manage to get trained just fine. Hitler's brown shirts were trained by WWI, Lenin ended up with a million trained soldiers from WWI as well. WWII left millions of trained men available for everyone in the world. We have a million Iraq/Afghanistan vets trained in all manner of armed combat and we know 20% of them support Obama. If 2000 of them sign up for the new "National Police Force" and they manage to train 50 guys each in six months he can have a 100,000 man semi-trained security force.
They do not need a lot of training just the desire to change the world, if anything the Iraqi plice prove that concept. Equip them with military equipment and allow them to use the computers and information tracking available to law enforcement and you have a national security force that can perform basic functions in six months. Assist the ATF in collecting 4473's for data entry and they can search regions of the country one at a time. Starting in California and the northeast where public support is highest is the best way.
As far as questioning the behavior of the police forces of America. Well they are all on the road to militarization and have been since 9/11. They are provided military weapons and armored cars if they request them from the DoD. Look at what they do to potheads, the excessive use of the "no knock warrant" on anyone who can remotely be called violent. Hell in Maryland they raided a town mayor's house and killed his dogs with no regard for his status or respect for his town PD this summer. Near Atlanta, Georgia in the 1990's one sheriff had the guy who defeated him in an election murdered in his driveway. Cops are no different that anyone else in motivation and level of honesty.
You cannot honestly think that law enforcement has the best interests of citizens in mind when they most certainly do not. Miranda rights are the best example of that, "anything you can say can and will be used against you in court". Notice it does not say it can be used to clear you of wrong doing. How many countless cases are exposed every year where LEO's simply decline to release to the defense information that would clear a suspect simply because they "thought" the guy was guilty in spite of evidence to the contrary?
If you watch the Obama show on TV, you might notice how wet the newscasters get when he speaks, how they applaud his every move, how they swoon over his pretty smile and sway with awe at every plan he spouts for "making America a place we can be proud of".
I'm proud of America now, apparently 51% of people are ashamed of America. They will support the great leader in his quest for income equalization and free college.
Germany did not have to retrain an entire police force when Hitler changed the laws did they? In England, for every guy that bitched the other 98% turned in their guns like sheep. Same in Australia and in every other country. Their cops gladly collected them.
You can choose to disobey and bury them in the garden if you like. In the end, they will do a web search and find your posts here, they will come by work and your boss will rat you out, your wife will cry and you will comply for the kids, your neighbors will rat you out when they stop by to ask questions and your kid will be compelled in school to tattle on mommy and daddy. If they cannot find them, they will add you to a watch list, restrict your travel or seize bank accounts for fines or do all manner of crappy things to you.
Now I am talking in the extreme so far, but everything I described happens in countries that used to have gun owners. Go read a history book, talk to a brit about his guns, a german jew or a victim of communism. Then read this guys policies and look at his friends. They are all communists or socialists.
Worst of all they control both houses of congress and the White House. If you think the police are there to save you or that they support your cause, then you may be lacking any version of sense or even a reasonable level of intelligence. 50% of America did not support the revolution in 1776, they do not support America now. They want the government to feed them, cloth them and shelter them and they will gladly give up their rights for a free bowl of soup and a blanket.
They do not need a lot of training just the desire to change the world, if anything the Iraqi plice prove that concept. Equip them with military equipment and allow them to use the computers and information tracking available to law enforcement and you have a national security force that can perform basic functions in six months. Assist the ATF in collecting 4473's for data entry and they can search regions of the country one at a time. Starting in California and the northeast where public support is highest is the best way.
As far as questioning the behavior of the police forces of America. Well they are all on the road to militarization and have been since 9/11. They are provided military weapons and armored cars if they request them from the DoD. Look at what they do to potheads, the excessive use of the "no knock warrant" on anyone who can remotely be called violent. Hell in Maryland they raided a town mayor's house and killed his dogs with no regard for his status or respect for his town PD this summer. Near Atlanta, Georgia in the 1990's one sheriff had the guy who defeated him in an election murdered in his driveway. Cops are no different that anyone else in motivation and level of honesty.
You cannot honestly think that law enforcement has the best interests of citizens in mind when they most certainly do not. Miranda rights are the best example of that, "anything you can say can and will be used against you in court". Notice it does not say it can be used to clear you of wrong doing. How many countless cases are exposed every year where LEO's simply decline to release to the defense information that would clear a suspect simply because they "thought" the guy was guilty in spite of evidence to the contrary?
If you watch the Obama show on TV, you might notice how wet the newscasters get when he speaks, how they applaud his every move, how they swoon over his pretty smile and sway with awe at every plan he spouts for "making America a place we can be proud of".
I'm proud of America now, apparently 51% of people are ashamed of America. They will support the great leader in his quest for income equalization and free college.
Germany did not have to retrain an entire police force when Hitler changed the laws did they? In England, for every guy that bitched the other 98% turned in their guns like sheep. Same in Australia and in every other country. Their cops gladly collected them.
You can choose to disobey and bury them in the garden if you like. In the end, they will do a web search and find your posts here, they will come by work and your boss will rat you out, your wife will cry and you will comply for the kids, your neighbors will rat you out when they stop by to ask questions and your kid will be compelled in school to tattle on mommy and daddy. If they cannot find them, they will add you to a watch list, restrict your travel or seize bank accounts for fines or do all manner of crappy things to you.
Now I am talking in the extreme so far, but everything I described happens in countries that used to have gun owners. Go read a history book, talk to a brit about his guns, a german jew or a victim of communism. Then read this guys policies and look at his friends. They are all communists or socialists.
Worst of all they control both houses of congress and the White House. If you think the police are there to save you or that they support your cause, then you may be lacking any version of sense or even a reasonable level of intelligence. 50% of America did not support the revolution in 1776, they do not support America now. They want the government to feed them, cloth them and shelter them and they will gladly give up their rights for a free bowl of soup and a blanket.
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JImbothefiveth
Member
AR-15s are available to your average Joe, why shouldn't law enforcement have them?
Are you saying politicians are above the law?
unisonic12
member
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It's also made in Germany, Romania, Bulgaria and a few other countries I can't remember right now.
unisonic12
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lonegunman said:
Got a link to where Obama actually said that? That's news to me.
GRP
Member
In the 20th century there was a law passed by big brother, making alcohol illegal. The law was unpopular and was disregarded by so many. Inforcement was almost impossible and very violent, with many police officers losing their lives. The law became uninforcable and was recinded.
moooose102
Member
then everyone they catch would get a free trip! if after a long period, and there were an extremely high rate of incidences, i suppose eventually, they would take another look at the law. if for instance, so many people were put into jail, there were absoloutly no places to put anyone. then, they would either change the sentance (huge fine / community service) or they would have to look at repealing the law. it would take an awful lot of good people going to jail to do that to our government! generally, most people do not want to go to jail for almost anything. especially, if it was a severe sentance. so if the penealty was 20 years in a penetentiary, how many people do you think would want to go to protest the ban?!? most of us would rather do everything else first, like go through political channels to repeal or change the law. the rich who can afford to, could hire attorneys to take these things to the supreme court, but usually, if they have that much wealth, there is a way around the law.
MagnumDweeb
Member
A law like any law only rests upon those who follow them. I'm a law abiding individual so no worries from me doing something illegal. But let us not forget those who don't even see the Bush era laws as legal and legitimate now. Those whom people think are merely ignorant trash sitting in their trailer parks stockpiling weapons. Let us not forget Timothy McVeigh, yeah frigging scary, anyone who has done their research will recognize quickly how not to make the same mistakes frightenningly enough. And we must assume that any paramilitary anti-american groups whom are affiliated politically contemperaneous groups will spark the organization of non-politically affiliated radical groups to counter one another in possibly violent ways.
Lets remember how hard it has been for the government to bust up the "Hell's Angels" the one big bust they made didn't even slow them down and there was a whole host of nasty weapons, then there's "The Mongols", "The Mexican Mafia", "MS-13", "Skinheads", "Klu Klux Klan", and on and on and on. Where does and enemy of my enemy become my friend. Where does a terrorist become a freedom finder. Yes lets assume all of us love our country and respect the laws but what happens when others don't.
I don't see it as a matter of large swathes of passing laws that'll make the BOA immaterial and being American illegal, that'd be stupid and poorly calculated to only spark off an unavoidable head-on crash. No the laws will come in drops, taxation will be used as a weapon (Obama got busted saying he'd tax anyone trying to build a clean-coal powerplant out of existence), and underclasses of mediocrity and lemming like control will be mobilized to "work in the community". All frightenning ideas that in all likelihood are highly inpropable but....but....what if?
I'm sure there were criminals when men like Hitler and Stalin came to power. Had the jews reached out to them, had the Russians reached out them, who knows, it's all question for the history books, unfortunately all we can hope for is that the rhetoric we have heard is nothing more but lip service and hold on for dear life believing that we all can get along and no one does anything stupid.
Lets remember how hard it has been for the government to bust up the "Hell's Angels" the one big bust they made didn't even slow them down and there was a whole host of nasty weapons, then there's "The Mongols", "The Mexican Mafia", "MS-13", "Skinheads", "Klu Klux Klan", and on and on and on. Where does and enemy of my enemy become my friend. Where does a terrorist become a freedom finder. Yes lets assume all of us love our country and respect the laws but what happens when others don't.
I don't see it as a matter of large swathes of passing laws that'll make the BOA immaterial and being American illegal, that'd be stupid and poorly calculated to only spark off an unavoidable head-on crash. No the laws will come in drops, taxation will be used as a weapon (Obama got busted saying he'd tax anyone trying to build a clean-coal powerplant out of existence), and underclasses of mediocrity and lemming like control will be mobilized to "work in the community". All frightenning ideas that in all likelihood are highly inpropable but....but....what if?
I'm sure there were criminals when men like Hitler and Stalin came to power. Had the jews reached out to them, had the Russians reached out them, who knows, it's all question for the history books, unfortunately all we can hope for is that the rhetoric we have heard is nothing more but lip service and hold on for dear life believing that we all can get along and no one does anything stupid.
DoubleTapDrew
Member
That law affected a great percentage of the people. The NFA was just as, if not moreso, unjust and it still stands today because the number of people it affects isn't enough to effectively resist. It depends on how many people are willing to ignore the law and how many people it affects. They know they can't pass a huge sweeping ban because they'd affect 100 million people, but they can take smaller nicks and cuts here and there with buzzwords like "assault", "high powered", sniper" or whatever the next evil term will be.
Stand together or we all fall. I cringe when I hear fudds talking about how they don't see the need for an assault type rifle. We are all on the same side and the antis won't stop. Ever. Even when you need a tax-stamp and license to buy a box cutter. Whether you are the young guy with the MP5 to the old guy with his Sharps, work together.
CountGlockula
Member
Easy....make sure they don't pass the law!
MikePGS
Member
No but I'm sure he wouldn't turn down a corporate welfare hand out.
langenc
Member
"I am so glad that Minnesota has a Constitutional Amendment protecting hunting, trapping, and fishing.... it almost inherently allows the ownership of firearms... "
Im glad you have it also.
Question-What is the concealled carry status of MINNESOTA I believe the US constitution says one may "KEEP AND BEAR" arms. What about the MN STATE constitution? Is "defense of self mentioned?" Is it practiced??
How many citizens are guaranteed CCW but cant?? I suggest that your hunting, fishing and trapping law is good but???
Im glad you have it also.
Question-What is the concealled carry status of MINNESOTA I believe the US constitution says one may "KEEP AND BEAR" arms. What about the MN STATE constitution? Is "defense of self mentioned?" Is it practiced??
How many citizens are guaranteed CCW but cant?? I suggest that your hunting, fishing and trapping law is good but???
Randallsix13
Member
Treo,
I think I know what you are going for, and it's a good question. I've often asked my co-workers, "What if every April 15, we all send a box of horse manure to the IRS instead of what we "owe"? I get responeses similair to what you have here.
Disobedience is key to Freedom, let's not forget that.
I think I know what you are going for, and it's a good question. I've often asked my co-workers, "What if every April 15, we all send a box of horse manure to the IRS instead of what we "owe"? I get responeses similair to what you have here.
Disobedience is key to Freedom, let's not forget that.
The original poster is correct
If everyone stood up and said 'We just aren't going to follow your silly little law' while a few individuals would be grabbed and mistreated, the jurys would say 'nope, let him go'
of course, there is one flaw in that scenario. It would take about 90% of the people to agree.
if we had 90% agreement, no politician would DARE do anyting.
But we don't.
Maybe long ago we did, but slowly people were convinced otherwise by 'scary news stories' and general unfamiliarity, and a dozen other reasons
If everyone stood up and said 'We just aren't going to follow your silly little law' while a few individuals would be grabbed and mistreated, the jurys would say 'nope, let him go'
of course, there is one flaw in that scenario. It would take about 90% of the people to agree.
if we had 90% agreement, no politician would DARE do anyting.
But we don't.
Maybe long ago we did, but slowly people were convinced otherwise by 'scary news stories' and general unfamiliarity, and a dozen other reasons
Lookn4Brass
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In all my years as an eligible voter (it's been over twenty years since I've been 18, OK?!) nothing has ever gone exactly the way I've thought when it comes to political things like this. However, what I am seeing now in this country are alot of people with an uncommonly strong passion to change the culture of this country. Like him or hate him, Bill O'Reilly has a been a preachin' it to us lately. Personally I don't give a "rat's behind" about my opinion of it, or any of your opinions of it either. What I DO care about is that we all have each other's backs on this. I hope that when the time comes, and even NOW, we start consistently working with each other to stop what's coming our way. Alot of these people that oppose our valuses are not well. They don't sleep good at night unless they think they can police someone's thoughts. Most of them that I've met have serious internal anger, for various reasons, and alot of them cannot be reasoned with very well. They need to fear something. Like all of us, united.
JTW Jr.
Member
Very well said.
I was talking with folks about this at lunch ( yeah they think I am a bit nuts , but oh well
).My thoughts...
Could they essentially make a different version of the NFA of 1934 ? Sure they could , enforcement would be a bizotch though. I don't fear confiscation and a ban , I do fear total control.
Think about this part of the NFA of 34 " The transfer tax of $200 placed on the transfer of firearms controlled by the Act was roughly equivalent to five months' salary in 1934 "
Lets say the avg guy makes 40K a year.. hmm 5 months salary is about 15K... for each firearm !
Could it happen ? sure it could , though not likely , but I am more afraid of something like this as opposed to a full out ban , too many closet owners in congress.
They may tax us out the wazzoo , on guns , parts and ammo.
I do agree , hunter , target shooter , ccw holder , whatever , we need to stand together. While someone may think " who needs assault & sniper rifles ? " , then turn around go hunt with their Rem 700 in 308 , well brudda , that 700 WILL be considered a sniper rifle , you better believe it will !
Agree to disagree on what we think may happen , in the end , we need to set differences aside of color , religion , education , tastes , etc and remember , we are all gun owners , we need to have each others back.
Now when do we start buying the property in Idaho for THR~Ville ?
Mr Crowley
Member
Is it even logistically possible for the gov. to take everyone's guns??
Gaining warrants and searching ~43-55 million households should be a problem.
No American with half a brain should give up their 4th and 5th amendment right. That alone should make it 10x as hard.
Who is going to be doing the enforcement? Some areas will be way to difficult to enforce.
I live out in the sticks in a town of a few hundred. What are they going to do about the thousands of other towns just like it where the judge and sheriff can decide "we aint gona fool with it". They are elected just like anywhere else, and they might want to keep their jobs.
Other problems might include the few real wacko's out there that might shoot ya if you enter their property much less try and take their guns away.
I just can't imagine how they would be able to it? Lawyers will have a field day with all the illegal search and seizure lawsuits. Large portions of the country might not choose to enforce it.
You know those sanctuary cities where all the cops judges and prosecutors openly say they will not bust any illegal immigrants...Do you think we could see "gun sanctuary" cities start popping up???
Gaining warrants and searching ~43-55 million households should be a problem.
No American with half a brain should give up their 4th and 5th amendment right. That alone should make it 10x as hard.
Who is going to be doing the enforcement? Some areas will be way to difficult to enforce.
I live out in the sticks in a town of a few hundred. What are they going to do about the thousands of other towns just like it where the judge and sheriff can decide "we aint gona fool with it". They are elected just like anywhere else, and they might want to keep their jobs.
Other problems might include the few real wacko's out there that might shoot ya if you enter their property much less try and take their guns away.
I just can't imagine how they would be able to it? Lawyers will have a field day with all the illegal search and seizure lawsuits. Large portions of the country might not choose to enforce it.
You know those sanctuary cities where all the cops judges and prosecutors openly say they will not bust any illegal immigrants...Do you think we could see "gun sanctuary" cities start popping up???
armedandsafe
Member
Behind every blade of grass.
Pops
Pops
indoorsoccerfrea
Member
wasnt that a japanese general who said that?
Mr Crowley
Member
Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
Richbaker
Member
Damn, talk about hyperbole and rhetoric....it ain't happening where I live, Sir....where the HELL are you???
Guns and more
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When you shoot at a flock of birds, do you expect to hit them all?
Same with laws. The ATF doesn't need to show up at everyones door, just one with overwhelming violence, and the rest will follow.
Do you want to be the one?
Eventually some will say, "enough." and things will change.
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