What happens when the police can no longer control criminals? Vigilantes . . .

[mordechaianiliewicz]

The problem isn't so much that it's vigilante justice as much as it's death squads which longeyes pointed out are often manned by bloodthirsty killers as opposed to the type of guys that were in Boondock Saints.

In RSA, there aren't "vigilance committees" that are running people out of town. Instead, it is a handfull of killers whacking people at the behest of businesses. This is little different from drug dealers killing competition at it's worst.

In RSA, it might devolve to just that. Or it might simply be citizens enforcing the law which the police are either incapable of doing, or do not wish to do. Only time will tell how far this trend goes, and what it entails.

Hopefully, it won't become private armies. Hopefully, it will be like vigilance commitees, but we have no guarantee. unfortunately, niether do the citizens of Zuid Afrika

 

[HankB]

Its funny... the SA cops have unlimited resources to track down the "death squads" and yet cannot seem to put repeat offenders behind bars...

It's a matter of warped priorities, and is not unique to SA.

Think back a couple of decades ago to when black children in Atlanta were disappearing. (Turned out the perp was a black man, name of, IIRC, Wayne Williams.) The police appeared helpless, so groups of black parents started doing things like gathering at school bus stop to watch the kids there, escorting them around the playground - with baseball bats! - to make sure they weren't abducted . . . basic, common sense ideas from people who actually cared about kids.

This sort of behavior was NOT to be tolerated, and by some accounts the Atlanta PD expended more man-hours harassing the protective parents' groups than they did looking for the actual killer.

 

[Mannlicher]

There is a crowd on this board, and others, that is just living for the Apocalypse. I can almost picture them, hunkered down in their 'bunker' counting their ammo, figuring out what desperate action to handle next in their 'AO'. Doom, gloom, and always the worst case scenerio. No matter the disaster though, with their Altoid Tin packed, and their Bug Out Bag stuffed, I am sure they are ready.

 

[Mongo the Mutterer]

Mannlicher, you might be able to help. Try as I might, I just can't seem to fit 500 rounds of 7.62 in that Altoid tin.... Good Post.


LOL -- "Death Squad"

Have you ever noticed when there are property owners and responsible people defending what they earned, they are "Death Squads" to the SMSM?

Communists are "Freedom Fighters" -- Terrorists are "Insurgents"

 

[atlctyslkr]

It's been proven time and time again. Private industry will pick up where public service left off. Those who can afford the means of protection will thrive and those who can't will suffer.

Being a cop used to be something that was respected by the majority of upstanding citizens, just like being in the service. How many kids do you know that want to be a police officer when they grow up? How many do you think will end up doing it after they have tried something else? I've gotten to know a few cops over the years and NONE Of them knew at 10 they wanted to be cops. They all did other jobs and just kind of fell into it. How many cops acutally do 20 years? It's just a change of mindset that is the cancer on our nation as a whole.

 

[DontBurnMyFlag]

south africa has a huge rape crisis. they should go after the rapists as well. I cant remember the statistics but I think it was 1 out of 2 women will be raped in south africa. especially in the cities.

irresponsible, feel-good governments create problems like these. however, I cant say Im against it.

 

[Thin Black Line]

When is the last time you needed a LEO ??

Well, "need" might be the wrong word, but I did report the neighbors
for explosions that kept happening on their rural property....

When, if ever have you been invited to a LEO's picnic ??

Use to go until I made the mistake of asking why an officer hadn't
been assigned to question the perp in a molestation case a week after
the victim's statement was made, yet they could spare 30 officers
for the anonymous meth tip on the same day it was phoned in.

If you ain't in BLUE - They will talk @#$%! to you !!

Yep, I particularly liked the converstion with the new neighbor (LEO)
where I mentioned having spent a deployment in Iraq he replied he "wasn't
stupid enough to join the military." Hey, thanks for the support....guess
green is just cannon fodder compared to blue?

There are some really good officers, a handful in each large department,
but you guys have to realise this a job with a good pension and health
plan. They have personal "risk assessments" just like everyone else and
will only go so far out on a limb.

I have plenty of real stories of lazy cops, but also stories about heroic cops.
It seems to me the heroic ones often leave public service and go into
private consulting/instructing leaving you the apparatchniks that stay in
the Gov service and move up until retirement. Just a reflection of the times
and modern America I guess.

 

[kludge]

What a concept!

The great thing about USA is that WE THE PEOPLE can delegate the powers and authorities to our duly elected/appointed individuals and yet retain that authority for ourselves.

This is the way God intended.

If I give you authority to be in my house, I give you COPY of the key. And I retain MY key with all it's authority.

If I give you power of attorney over my affairs, that does not mean I gave up my ability to manage them myself.

If we (collectively) empower a Sheriff to enforce the laws of our county, We do not give up the right to enforce it ourselves in the absence/inability of said Sheriff. We gave him the power to do it, and We retain the power to give it to the next Sheriff.

 

[Thin Black Line]

This is the way God intended.

If I give you authority to be in my house,

Ah, yes, we speak of who has "authority" and how it is delegated. I agree
with you, but we live again in the time of Pharisees.

 

[longeyes]

Boondock Saints was one of the best movies in a long time. Shame that it was blacklisted and as far as I know, didnt get to show in a single movie theater. For those who havent seen it yet, it was a movie that puts vigilantism in a very positive light.

FWIW: Just available in a special DVD edition. Great odd turn by Willem Defoe.

 

[kludge]

but we live again in the time of Pharisees.

Beware the leaven of the Pharisees.

 

[Mark13]

If they get paid then they are mercenaries, not vigilanties

 

[Iain]

longeyes is about right. Be very careful what you wish for.

 

[beerslurpy]

Who said anything about wishing and who said anything about fulfilling those wishes with death squads? Things have an entirely different flavor in the US.

If vigilantism ever becomes necessary in America, the citizenry are well equipped to particpate in it, on as small or large a scale as necessary. Some may say that the big cities have lost that frontier spirit, but remember that Bernie Goetz and the various subway samaritans were all from NYC.

Remember, vigilantism is about sowing a small amount of unlawful behavior to reap a big harvest in lawfulness- the overall balance is towards preserving the lawfulness of society. If things havent gone to hell, vigilantism probably isnt necessary. South Africa is in dire need of some.

 

[longeyes]

If vigilantism takes hold in this country, there will be a lot of different groups flying the black flag. Some will be "good citizens" doing jobs the Government won't do. Others will just be armed, vicious cranks with an axe to grind. Vigilantism is just another form of tribalism. I can't see it as anything other than a symptom of social devolution.

 

[kludge]

vigilantism is about sowing a small amount of unlawful behavior to reap a big harvest in lawfulness

How is vigilantism illegal?

It is not, as I hear repeatedly, "taking the law into your own hands" it is simply enforcing the law, which every citizen has the right to do.

If I see illegal activity I (or WE) have the right to place that person under arrest.

 

[leadcounsel]

Vigilantism

Great in theory, bad in practice.

Vigilanties become mobsters themselves and the "justice" is often too heavy handed for the "perceived" wrong. Someone "crosses" a vigilante gang and next thing you know that persons family is dead and house burned down.

I'm not in favor of it in general. I suppose in an extreme case, let's say that a man and wife are robbed, the robbers rape and kill the wife in his presence, and he survives and can identify them but they get away on a technicality, then I can't say I could condemn the man for retaliation.... but those are probably rare cases.

 

[Thin Black Line]

I can't see it as anything other than a symptom of social devolution.

+1.

 

[Sheldon J]

Lets see

Which Clint Eastwood movie was it where the cops were taking the law into their own hands and acting out just like this seneraio, (Magnum force) so these perp's that have escaped the legal system were brought to justice by someone tired of catching, arresting, going to court, then only to see the BG released back onto the street... more than one LEO is involved here, and good for them.

 

[pilot teacher]

Vigilantes

"We're worried about the increase in serious and violent crimes in the city, and that they could lead to further anarchy. We won't tolerate this type of vigilante action and we're using everything available to address the violence," Boshoff said.

I call it street justice NOT anarchy. .
The anarchy is on the part of politicians who are impotent in controlling crime.
And, the inability of the penal system to imprision these scumbags for a long time. Mega kudos to the those who are forced by the system to protect themselves.

 

[kludge]

myself:If I see illegal activity I (or WE) have the right to place that person under arrest.

I/We do not however have the right to deprive someone of life/liberty/or property without due process.

THAT would be taking the law into you own hands.

 

[ProficientRifleman]

Read up on the last attempted bank robery by the Dalton Gang in Coffeyville, Kansas. The citizens there were, you might say, vigilant.

 

[longeyes]

ugly reality - ethnic cleansing in SoCal - apply as needed

U.S. Accuses 4 Gang Members of Hate Crime in Black's Killing
Prosecutor says 1999 slaying was part of a conspiracy to keep African Americans out of turf claimed in Highland Park.
By John Spano, Times Staff Writer
June 29, 2006

A Latino street gang threatened, assaulted, terrorized and murdered black people in Highland Park for six years in an effort to keep them out of their territory, a federal prosecutor alleged Wednesday.

"Kenneth Wilson was killed because he was black, because he was in Highland Park and because the Avenues gang members had promised each other, had agreed that they would drive African Americans out of the neighborhood, by threats, by force, by murder," Assistant U.S. Atty. Alex Bustamante told jurors.

Prosecutors used a federal hate crimes law, based on the 13th Amendment to the Constitution outlawing slavery, to prosecute the defendants, along with conspiracy charges, in Wilson's death.

The defense claimed without success that the federal government has no power to involve itself in a common street crime, such as Wilson's 1999 murder in a car in Highland Park.

The defendants are Gilbert Saldana, Alejandro Martinez, Fernando Cazares and Porfirio Avila. The trial opened under extraordinary security in the Edward R. Roybal Courthouse downtown, with federal officers blanketing all exits from the courtroom.

The defendants sat behind three rising rows of seats opposite the jury, each shackled to the floor.

The restraints were behind an elaborate set of risers that make them invisible to others in the courtroom.

Defense attorney Reuven L. Cohen urged jurors to keep an open mind and to reject testimony from three former Avenues gang members who he said turned government informants to curry favor with prosecutors.

One of them, David Cruz, a convicted, deported felon who was brought into the U.S. to testify for the government, was at the center of a series of hearings before U.S. District Judge Percy Anderson leading up to the trial.

The alleged conspiracy included multiple assaults on blacks, and prosecutors said they have linked two other killings to the scheme.

"They wanted all blacks out of that neighborhood, not just African American men, not just African American gang members but all African American women and children," Bustamante said.

Cohen said the crimes sprang in part from racial prejudice "that exists in every pocket of every corner of every part of our city."

 

[Samarkand]

Vigilante actions are a symptom of a failed state. They exist where the state has not officially established a formal law enforcement mechanism (such as the vigilance committees in the Old West) or the state has so failed its citizens that they resort to extra-legal tactics (the Skidmore incident). Vigilantism could be claimed as "necessary" as a reaction to an extreme situation...but it is never desirable.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

longeyes, what this has to do with vigilante actions is well, specious at best.

Tribal war and vigilantism are different things.

I'm not saying that SoCal doesn't have a prblm, and I'm also not saying that poor black people don't have alot of things to fear from illegal Hispanics (everyone in the US has reason to fear, including legal Hispanics). But, that wasn't vigilantism it was as you said ethnic cleansing.

Vigilantism is taking the law into your own hands when the government won't do the job.

Ethinic cleansing and vigilantism: 2 very different things.