What I have learned from ballistics/stopping power threads.

[40SW]

Threads on ballistics and stopping power/energy transfer/ energy dump/ momentum/velocity are very interesting., but here is what it boils down to and here is what I have learned from threads like these. I have read about a 1000 similar threads on forums like this. My summary of what I have learned.

1. There are about 1,000,000 variables in a defensive shooting situation. They cannot be quantified even by an experienced physicist.

2. Carry the highest and most effective caliber chambering that you can shoot proficiently.

3. Hope to God that you will never have to test these theories in an ACTUAL tactical situation.

4. Take up reloading and learn more about projectile ballistics.

5. An expert, even with a PHD after their name is not necessarily someone who knows ballistics or a gun person. Understanding how projectiles behave while moving is not the same as understanding ballistics as it pertains to firearms.

6. Never say that a .40SW or a .45ACP is superior to a 9mm ,because superior is a relative term dependant on shot placement and I sure as hell dont want to get hit with any 9mm center mass.

7. Never say that a cartridge has to begin with the number 4 to be effective. I am not ready to give up my .357MAG or 10mm just yet. If you say that a cartridge has to begin with the number 4 to be effective to an experienced shooter, they will look at you like you are a martian.

8. Repeat #5.

9. Shooting test against watermelons and water are great but do not simulate the human cranium as it pertains to penetrating bone. Head shots are more difficult because they are a smaller target and one should aim center mass if possible. Even centermass shots have to deal with bone and dense muscle tissue. Gelatin and watermelons ARE NOT THE HUMAN BODY.

10. feedback welcome.

 

[Jim Watson]

1. Reliability trumps caliber or bullet design. If it doesn't shoot, it doesn't hit.

2. Sam Colt, John Browning, Gaston Glock and a whole host of others worked hard to make the "one shot stop" less significant. Anybody worth shooting is worth shooting a lot.

 

[jerkface11]

7. Never say that a cartridge has to begin with the number 4 to be effective. I am not ready to give up my .357MAG or 10mm just yet. If you say that a cartridge has to begin with the number 4 to be effective to an experienced shooter, they will look at you like you are a martian.

10mm is a .40 cal.

 

[40SW]

quote "10mm is a .40 cal.", thats exactly my point, a 10mm is a .40SW Magnum, but the metric designation for .40 is 10mm, .357 is 9mm, etc,etc, but the point is that is the same bulllet but the metric equivalent does NOT begin with a 4. , so to say that a deffensive load has to begin with a .4 is like saying that I refuse to drive 60 mph, but I will be happy to drive 100kph or vice versa.

 

[LaEscopeta]

1. +1

2. +1

3. +1

4. Well, don’t know about the reloading requirement, but +1 on “learn more about projectile ballistics.”

5. Well, don’t know about this one either. I think interior & exterior ballistics are explained well by science. And the average person with a little study can understand the basic concepts of both of these. What science can NOT currently explain adequately is terminal ballistics, what happens when a projectile hits a target. Especially if the target is an animal.
(Interior ballistics: what happens from the breach to the muzzle.
Exterior ballistics: what happens from the muzzle to the target.)

6 & 7. We know some of the parameters of terminal ballistics (projectile mass and velocity, hardness, penetration, etc) and something about how these parameters interact. It is extremely complex and the parts we don’t know are far greater than what we do know. Some people can’t or don’t like complex issues with a lot of unknowns. So they come up with a simple minded mantra and convince themselves it is true. They find comfort in this belief and reinforce it by making long winded, nonsensical and non-factual arguments in favor of their simple mantra. If they start hearing logic against their mantra they argue faster and louder to block out the facts. (I realize this is not exactly a High Road sentiment, but I’m guessing those it applies to are not going to realize it, so no harm no foul.)

8. Repeat #5.

9. +1. Course we can’t be shooting humans for ever test we need. Shooting watermelons and water jugs can tell us some things about shooting watermelons and water jugs. It may be possible to extrapolate some of these things learned to shooting humans, but maybe not.

10. +1.

 

[camslam]

2. Carry the highest and most effective caliber chambering that you can shoot proficiently.

Obviously shot placement matters most, but since most people don't hit what they are aiming at....(continues below)

6. Never say that a .40SW or a .45ACP is superior to a 9mm ,because superior is a relative term dependant on shot placement and I sure as hell dont want to get hit with any 9mm center mass.

(Continuing from above) - I don't know that I would ever say that a 9mm is superior to anything larger than it. If that is what you shoot most accurately, go for it, but in the end doesn't it make some sense to put bigger holes and bigger chunks of metal into the threat?

9. Shooting test against watermelons and water are great but do not simulate the human cranium as it pertains to penetrating bone. Head shots are more difficult because they are a smaller target and one should aim center mass if possible. Even centermass shots have to deal with bone and dense muscle tissue. Gelatin and watermelons ARE NOT THE HUMAN BODY.

Once again, this is why I would want something that is heavy enough and big enough to bust through whatever is trying to slow it down or change its course. It is well known that the lighter the bullet the easier it is to change its direction and velocity upon entering the body. JMHO

 

[esq_stu]

Anybody worth shooting is worth shooting a lot.

I don't agree with this statement.

Shooting to stop a threat is legally defensible. Shooting to lock-back or empty cylinder could more difficult to defend.

 

[1911Tuner]

I don't agree with this statement.
Shooting to stop a threat is legally defensible. Shooting to lock-back or empty cylinder could more difficult to defend.

Pray that you never have to discover the tongue-in-cheek validity of that statement. A couple decades back, there was a report of an Arizona State Trooper who hit a guy center chest 6 times with a .357 Magnum...and the guy wrestled the gun away from the trooper and nearly beat him to death with it before he bled out.

Shoot until the threat is over...

 

[revjen45]

The 9X19mm got as reputation as a poor fight stopper with Hague Convention ball ammo. Developments in projectile technology have done a lot to improve its effectiveness as a defensive caliber. One thing it has going for it is that it's relatively cheap, hence you get more more practice per dollar that you do with 10mm, .357 Mag (my favorite caliber BTW), or .40 S&W. Also, lighter recoil means quicker follow up shots. Whether or not one buys into the Marshall/Sanow studies, there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference in channel changing with calibers from 9X19 on up. The one shot stop is a concept defined by a specific set of statistical criteria and like EPA mileage ratings useful for comparison only, not an indication of what you can expect on the road. Shot placement and putting lots of lead in the air and on target are a lot more important than the number your caliber starts with. Wild Bill Hickock put a lot of pretty tough men on the trailer with a gun ballistically equivalent to the .380ACP, and spoke well of the gut shot as a fight stopper. I have never had to shoot anyone (thank God) and hope I never have to, I can't speak from experience. I carry the biggest gun/caliber consistent with concealment with what I'm wearing- usually a Steyr S9 or .38 snubbie, occasionally an abbreviated .45. I don't feel under gunned with the guns I usually carry and try to remain alert so I can at best avoid a bad situation, or at least be ready for it ASAP.

 

[Werewolf]

Shot Placement...
Shot Placement...
Shot Placement...

A .22 in the eye will kill a human about as close to instantaneously as possible.

That said: In the heat of battle shot placement can become a bit iffy which leads me down the path of bigger is better than smaller.

Final conclusion - use the largest caliber, firing the heaviest bullet, as fast as you can make it go, that you can handle with minute of man accuracy.

 

[Scorpiusdeus]

9. +1. Course we can’t be shooting humans for ever test we need. Shooting watermelons and water jugs can tell us some things about shooting watermelons and water jugs. It may be possible to extrapolate some of these things learned to shooting humans, but maybe not.

I think ballistic testing is very important for military, LE and civilian ammunition and we have prisons full of rapists and child molesters. I see a quick fix to the problem of accurate ballistic testing.

 

[Rufus Pisanus]

40SW I am happy with your summary (and probably agree with many of the suggested improvements). I guess this applies mostly to handgun calibers as for rifles one opens another can of worms (e.g. a 308 doesn't begin with 4 either but I most definitely wouldn't want to be hit by it).

Some of the parameters (e.g. speed vs expansion) can also be radically different at 1000 fps vs 3000 fps.

btw in one of Jeff Cooper books (I think it was To ride, shoot straight and speak the truth) he describes what happened to a guy who apparently shoot himself with a rifle round with powder but WITHOUT a bullet... clearly depending on circumstances one doesn't even need a bullet!

 

[B yond]

Anybody worth shooting is worth shooting a lot.

That's a good one. I don't think it would stand up in court, but I like the way it sounds.

+1 for shooting to stop.

In CQC you don't know how many shots it will take to stop your attacker, and don't have enough range between you and him/her to place shots one at a time until they stop advancing. You need to get as many rounds into the attacker as necessary to incapacitate them as quickly as possible. Sometimes shooting to slide-lock and shooting to stop are the same.

FWIW I think it's understandable to unload a full magazine on an advancing attacker at 3 yards from your pistol. That would be shooting to stop.

/rant off

 

[willbrink]

Here is what I have learned:

(1) we know a great deal less about terminal ballistics than I thought when I got into shooting, which is due to mostly to the fact that the law frowns on shooting people under controlled conditions so other mediums have to take the place of “real world” controlled shootings and extrapolations made.

(2) there are far more opinions about terminal ballistics than there are facts, and the number of people who really follow the research/facts/data on this topic are few and far between.

(3) most of the theories of terminal ballistics I thought were “facts” were not.

(4) all things being equal, the bullet that penetrates to a terminal depth and makes the biggest hole, allows the most blood out and the most air in, is best, thus what has become known as the “big hole theory” of terminal ballistics vs others earlier theories such as “energy dump” and such that may have favored small fast bullets over larger slow bullets. Debate still exists, but most true researchers in this field favor the big hole theory over others.

(5) unlike TV, no handgun rnd takes the fight out of all people all the time and it’s amazing how much fight can be left in a person who does not care he’s been shot (which was what led me to move my way up over time from a .380 to a .45 ACP after owning all the calibers inbtween)

(7) Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement…

That’s what came to mind for me. I am sure a few more will pop in my head right after I post this!

 

[brashboy]

Great thread!

BALLISTICS:
What is wanted is a caliber that is powerful but that will - most likely - expend its energy in the target. High-penetrating rounds are great for LEOs who have to shoot through vehicles and other obstacles. When an LE's bullet over-penetrates and kills someone, it is a horrible thing but he won't go to jail for it. If you or I do it, could be big trouble. And I don't want to put anyone else at risk. This is why I like the 147-gr. 9mm and the 230-gr .45 ACP, big and slow. I want the BG to take the heat, not bystanders.

I don't much like JHP bullets b/c expansion is not that reliable in handgun rounds. If the BG is sneering at .45 ball ammo, I'm not sure JHP would do much better, anyway, and may not even expand. Better shoot him in the leg so you can outrun him - I couldn't outrun him even then, but you get my point...

 

[1911Tuner]

Better shoot him in the leg so you can outrun him - I couldn't outrun him even then, but you get my point...\

Then shoot for the pelvic girdle. It's easier to hit than a leg, and if it's broken, column support goes quickly. He can still shoot at you...he just can't do it standin' up. Even if it doesn't break the pelvis...a hit in the groin area tends to make a man wanna run find a doctor double-quick.

 

[gbran]

What I have learned from ballistics/stopping power threads.

Too often I see someone say they'd rather have a smaller caliber center of mass hit than a miss with a .45.

Does this mean a .45 can't hit COM?

It's all about shot placement. Yeah, I too agree this statement, but that doesn't mean that a .177 airgun pellet with good shot placement is sufficient.

These are just pet peaves of mine when viewing caliber wars.

 

[Monkeybear]

What I have learned is that you should just make sure and your firearm are both reliable and that your ammo comes in a box of 20 and has a major manufactures name on it.

 

[Timthinker]

Let me take this discussion one giant step further by stating that the "variability factors" are not limited solely to firearms, although that is the explicit subject of this thread. Variables also apply to impact weapons, edged weapons and unarmed fighting skills. In fact, your particular lifestyle is also a variable that can increase or decrease the odds of confronting a threatening situation. What is my point? Think carefully about the most probable threats you might encounter and plan accordingly. That is all anyone can do.


Timthinker