Mountainman2
Member
Is it worth the time and expense of buying a separate die. I have been doing both at the same time On my 357 and 45 revolvers and T/C hand guns.
Last edited:
What is the advantage of seating and crimping separately
- Thread starter Mountainman2
- Start date
Atavar
Member
You don’t need a separate die, just remove the seating stem when crimping.
If you are having problems seating and crimping in a single operation then separate the options , otherwise why complicate life?
If you are having problems seating and crimping in a single operation then separate the options , otherwise why complicate life?
Bearded Phil
Member
In my experience trying to set up a seating/crimping die to do both functions at the same time was unreliable at best and a waste of time at worst.
Any cartridge I load that takes a crimp (stuff for my revolver and lever actions) gets seated first and then crimped after. I used to use Lee collet crimps but I've since moved to using Redding profile crimp dies. Whether Redding dies are making a difference on accuracy I can't say quite yet but there's no collet to gouge the case mouths. I wont be using the Lee ones on my "expensive" brass like 45-70 anymore.
Any cartridge I load that takes a crimp (stuff for my revolver and lever actions) gets seated first and then crimped after. I used to use Lee collet crimps but I've since moved to using Redding profile crimp dies. Whether Redding dies are making a difference on accuracy I can't say quite yet but there's no collet to gouge the case mouths. I wont be using the Lee ones on my "expensive" brass like 45-70 anymore.
.308 Norma
Member
As Atavar said, you don't need a separate die. For that matter, I don't even "remove" the seating stem when I crimp in a separate step - I just back the seating stem out a bit and screw the seating/crimping die IN until I get the desired amount of crimp.
That said, I DO have a couple of Lee "Factory Crimp" dies. "I've never had much use for them." Quigley
Riomouse911
Member
Some folks separate the steps for better precision.
I don’t shoot well enough to tell the difference, so I do what @.308 Norma does and find the happy crimp space by adjusting the seating die.
Stay safe.
I don’t shoot well enough to tell the difference, so I do what @.308 Norma does and find the happy crimp space by adjusting the seating die.
Stay safe.
n2omike
Member
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2021
- Messages
- 469
If your brass has varying lengths, and you try to seat/crimp in one motion, the variances in lengths will cause the crimps to be all over the place. Some will be really light, and some will be overly deep.
If you crimp in separate steps, you can use 'feel' to get the crimps more consistent.
This being said, I don't crimp the majority of what I load anymore. Sure, if it's going to be in a tubular mag or something, yes... If not, I don't see the need unless it's a cast bullet and you need to remove a bell mouth. Standard fare for me when using jacketed bullets, is to use the case expanding die, but stop short of where it bell mouths the case. Jacketed bullets go in just fine, and the cases have to last longer without all that extra shaping.
Good Luck
If you crimp in separate steps, you can use 'feel' to get the crimps more consistent.
This being said, I don't crimp the majority of what I load anymore. Sure, if it's going to be in a tubular mag or something, yes... If not, I don't see the need unless it's a cast bullet and you need to remove a bell mouth. Standard fare for me when using jacketed bullets, is to use the case expanding die, but stop short of where it bell mouths the case. Jacketed bullets go in just fine, and the cases have to last longer without all that extra shaping.
Good Luck
It depends on the bullet, any one with a good cannelure or crimp groove is easy to set up to seat and crimp in the same step.
What bullet?
More details at this link
What bullet?
More details at this link
universal clays and 357
Looking to order my first bullets for reloading. Speer's .158 LSWC . I found Universal loads for .38 and .38+p but nothing for .357. Will Universal work for .357 loads? Is the .158 grain lswc an easy bullet to start with? Thanks
www.thehighroad.org
Last edited:
jmorris
Member
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2005
- Messages
- 24,224
The main advantage of having them not combined, is that you can adjust one without changing the other.
Combined, if you change the crimp, you just changed the seating depth too. So now you have to go back and fiddle with it again.
It’s not rocket science and I have combined the two, when I have to but I like to keep things easy, when I can.
Combined, if you change the crimp, you just changed the seating depth too. So now you have to go back and fiddle with it again.
It’s not rocket science and I have combined the two, when I have to but I like to keep things easy, when I can.
GeoDudeFlorida
Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2020
- Messages
- 11,098
Q: if it works, why change?
mkl
Member
Its pretty simple. As you seat and crimp at the same time you are pushing the bullet down at the same time you are bending in the case neck for the crimp. This means you are scraping into the bullet and leaving gouges as you crimp. Those gouges/troughs do not help accuracy. Using separate steps (no extra die needed) keeps the bullet as it was made -- nice and round with no trenches in it as a result of a crimp as it seats.
Seating and crimping in one step requires your brass to be all the same length, or at least real close. I roll crimp my .38/.357 loads, and periodically trim my brass so I can do it in one step. Crimping into a cannelure gives you some extra wiggle room.
I taper crimp my 9mm and .45 acp, and do both in two steps. I shoot alot of range pickups and think having to trim is way more trouble than getting the extra dies. I use Dillon dies for 9mm and have repurposed my RCBS seater to a dedicated crimp die for .45.
I spent many hours adjusting the RCBS seater to avoid shaving lead, and never succeeded.
I taper crimp my 9mm and .45 acp, and do both in two steps. I shoot alot of range pickups and think having to trim is way more trouble than getting the extra dies. I use Dillon dies for 9mm and have repurposed my RCBS seater to a dedicated crimp die for .45.
I spent many hours adjusting the RCBS seater to avoid shaving lead, and never succeeded.
jmorris
Member
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2005
- Messages
- 24,224
It’s obviously going to be bullet depended but the “crimp” I set my die’s (seat&crimp or seat then crimp) would often be better referred to as the bell/flare removal step.
Using either method, I pull bullets to ensure the crimp isn’t changing the bullets diameter as that destroys accuracy.
Why outfits sell bullets they have ruined vs loading them up in ammunition to sell (and ruin their reputation).
Like these.
AJC1
Member
Well a lee fcd is sold separately and is cheap compared to any other die so that's what I use in pistol. In most rifle I don't crimp but 30-30 I back out the seating stem in my rcbs die and crimp a batch all at once. I keep a dummy round to set the seater back up quickly.
I load several different types of bullets. Doing the functions separately is just easier for me. Once I set the crimp die, I rarely have to change it but the seating die is going to be adjusted a lot for the different seating depths of the various bullets. If you only use one style bullet and all your brass is the same, then this may not be an issue for you.
LiveLife
Member
I have reloaded over 750,000 pistol rounds the past 30 years (I don't keep track of rifle rounds reloaded) and for taper crimping, simply returning case mouth flare back flat on bullet works fine to seat and taper crimp in one operation, even for lead/coated lead bullets.
I think some reloaders get into trouble of shaving lead/coated lead bullet or cutting into plated bullet maybe due to applying too much taper crimp and/or using too short of resized case to set the taper crimp amount and longer cases end up digging too much into the bullet.
I have been seating and taper crimping in same step for decades and jacketed/plated bullet won't give me much trouble. With lead/coated lead bullets, I am more careful with flare/taper crimp amount as too much resized case length variation can cause either not enough flare amount or too much taper crimp amount.
Below are .452" sized Lee tumble lubed 200 gr SWC and MBC 200 gr SWC seated and taper crimped in same step to .473" at case mouth (.452" + .011" + .011" = .473" with .011" being average case wall thickness at case mouth).
Below are .356" sized MBC 9mm lead/Hi-Tek coated bullets seated and taper crimped in same step to .378" at case neck (.356" + .011" + .011" = .378")
Of course, no issue seating and taper crimping in same step with jacketed/plated bullets (BTW, Speer TMJ is thick plated bullet and Zero 9mm bullet is sized larger at .356"). .355" sized bullets were taper crimped to .377" (.355" + .011" + .011" = .377") and .3555"/.356" sized bullets were taper crimped to .378" - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-9#post-10648145
And returning flare back flat on bullet maintains square case mouth to "headspace" with forward part of chamber as shown below RMR 9mm 124 gr FMJ sized .3555" with .378" taper crimp loaded to 1.130". Note the sharp 90 degree edge of case mouth to headspace with the chamber (And note the even case neck bulge around the bullet base to indicate good neck tension and that bullet was not tilted during seating which would produce one sided bulge) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11419509
So yes, you can seat and taper crimp in one step.
Targa
Member
Bearded Phil
Member
Taper crimp is probably something more easily done in the seating/crimp combo I'm sure but for anything that is roll crimped I never got workable results.
If OP is doing fine seating/crimping together for their 357 mag and 45 (colt?) revolvers there's probably no need to change.
If OP is doing fine seating/crimping together for their 357 mag and 45 (colt?) revolvers there's probably no need to change.
Mountainman2
Member
Every thing seems to work for me and like riomouse911 said i am not that good a shot to tell the difference. Thanks for the info.
CQB45ACP
Member
Dang man, I’ve seen this family picture so often I’m beginning to think they’re my kids not yours
CQB45ACP
Member
Well with all that loading when did you find time to learn how to be such a fine photographer? You and @Walkalong are expertsI have reloaded over 750,000 pistol rounds the past 30 years (I don't keep track of rifle rounds reloaded) and for taper crimping, simply returning case mouth flare back flat on bullet works fine to seat and taper crimp in one operation, even for lead/coated lead bullets.
I think some reloaders get into trouble of shaving lead/coated lead bullet or cutting into plated bullet maybe due to applying too much taper crimp and/or using too short of resized case to set the taper crimp amount and longer cases end up digging too much into the bullet.
I have been seating and taper crimping in same step for decades and jacketed/plated bullet won't give me much trouble. With lead/coated lead bullets, I am more careful with flare/taper crimp amount as too much resized case length variation can cause either not enough flare amount or too much taper crimp amount.
Below are .452" sized Lee tumble lubed 200 gr SWC and MBC 200 gr SWC seated and taper crimped in same step to .473" at case mouth (.452" + .011" + .011" = .473" with .011" being average case wall thickness at case mouth).
Below are .356" sized MBC 9mm lead/Hi-Tek coated bullets seated and taper crimped in same step to .378" at case neck (.356" + .011" + .011" = .378")
Of course, no issue seating and taper crimping in same step with jacketed/plated bullets (BTW, Speer TMJ is thick plated bullet and Zero 9mm bullet is sized larger at .356"). .355" sized bullets were taper crimped to .377" (.355" + .011" + .011" = .377") and .3555"/.356" sized bullets were taper crimped to .378" - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-9#post-10648145
And returning flare back flat on bullet maintains square case mouth to "headspace" with forward part of chamber as shown below RMR 9mm 124 gr FMJ sized .3555" with .378" taper crimp loaded to 1.130". Note the sharp 90 degree edge of case mouth to headspace with the chamber (And note the even case neck bulge around the bullet base to indicate good neck tension and that bullet was not tilted during seating which would produce one sided bulge) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11419509
So yes, you can seat and taper crimp in one step.
Last edited:
CQB45ACP
Member
Well I’m sure not arguing with all the experts here nor will I embarrass myself by putting up pictures, but in both 9mm & 45acp I do them separately. In fact I’m using Redding’s competition seater which has no crimp function anyway.
When I crimp, if I crimp, I use either an FCD or Redding micrometer taper crimp die although I no longer crimp (nor deflare) 9mm. It’s just not necessary.
For both I lightly chamfer all cases, use an undersized sizing die for plenty of tension, hardly hardly hardly flare when expanding, and the seater holds the bullet and case in alignment.
And as you can imagine, I’m a single stage (well, turret press) low volume batch loader.
When I crimp, if I crimp, I use either an FCD or Redding micrometer taper crimp die although I no longer crimp (nor deflare) 9mm. It’s just not necessary.
For both I lightly chamfer all cases, use an undersized sizing die for plenty of tension, hardly hardly hardly flare when expanding, and the seater holds the bullet and case in alignment.
And as you can imagine, I’m a single stage (well, turret press) low volume batch loader.
ReloaderNoob
Member
Hornady came out with a new seater die for 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP that separates the crimp and seat functions on the die. I've always used the Lee crimp dies, but in trying these out, worked well in all 3 calibers. Granted only used new brass to assume all were same length, haven't tried reloads on fired brass yet.
Attachments
refuse2bafool
Member
I never had an issue criming and seating at the same time except when trying to taper crimp, which I have heard some say is not even really a crimp, for 9mm and 45acp using cast bullets. I just could never seem to reliably eliminate shaving the lead even when I trimmed the cases and chamfered them. I do find it easier to set up with with a seperate die for crimping regarldess and since I now use a LCT and a Pro 6000 that's all I do now.
Just my experience.
Just my experience.
