Vern Humphrey
Member
Including the claim that you have to keep switching loads if you want to shoot a .30-06.
What is the range of a 45/70?
- Thread starter phantomak47
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Bear,
Even the most hostile load that Garret makes does not meet the required minimum energy levels for any of the African countries who allow free range thick skinned DG hunting.
Vince Luppo shot all of his stuff on game farms in South Africa.
Those very few folks who have used there .45-70's outside of South Africa to hunt buff or ele or hippo have done so technically in violation of the local game laws.
Garrets marketing scheme is a marketing scam.
He makes great ammo but it isn't even legal for the purposes that the claims they should be used.
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"Including the claim that you have to keep switching loads if you want to shoot a .30-06."
Vern,
I was thinking the same thing.
Even the most hostile load that Garret makes does not meet the required minimum energy levels for any of the African countries who allow free range thick skinned DG hunting.
Vince Luppo shot all of his stuff on game farms in South Africa.
Those very few folks who have used there .45-70's outside of South Africa to hunt buff or ele or hippo have done so technically in violation of the local game laws.
Garrets marketing scheme is a marketing scam.
He makes great ammo but it isn't even legal for the purposes that the claims they should be used.
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"Including the claim that you have to keep switching loads if you want to shoot a .30-06."
Vern,
I was thinking the same thing.
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22-rimfire
Member
H&H, I bet you enjoyed the article on the 375 in Shooting Times this month. It certainly worships at your alter.
(Added) Greg Rodriquez, the author "375 Holland & Holland More Than Enough" (Feb 2008 ST issue) really gets around. I'm envious. He also wrote another 375 article in the issue on the Kimber Caprivi rifle. It is a good issue for shooters who like sporting rifles not to mention the article on the 327 Fed Mag.
(Added) Greg Rodriquez, the author "375 Holland & Holland More Than Enough" (Feb 2008 ST issue) really gets around. I'm envious. He also wrote another 375 article in the issue on the Kimber Caprivi rifle. It is a good issue for shooters who like sporting rifles not to mention the article on the 327 Fed Mag.
H&H, I'm not suggesting that anyone use a .45-70, no matter how hot, on large African game, just that .45-70 in a gun made of modern steel can be loaded a lot hotter than some people recognize.
I'm also not saying you have to keep switching loads with a .30-06. It was Vern who kept pulling out the "you can get bullets that..." canard.
Deer and antelope with the same .30 bullet? Why not? I wrote "bison", not "deer".
The .45-70 will, also.
That's exactly what I said. It shoots flatter.
I'm also not saying you have to keep switching loads with a .30-06. It was Vern who kept pulling out the "you can get bullets that..." canard.
Deer and antelope with the same .30 bullet? Why not? I wrote "bison", not "deer".
The .45-70 will, also.
That's exactly what I said. It shoots flatter.
Vern Humphrey
Member
What canard? Are you saying there are not .30 caliber bullets with a BC of .5 or over?
And would the BC change from day to day, so you have to change loads?
And I can take deer, antelope and bison with the same load in .30-06. And moose and grizzley.
Absolutely, haven't shot a moose or grizzley but several elk with 30-06 that passed right on through and feel real confident the same bullet will moose or bison also.
We had a thread where a guy on this board this month shot a buffalo with a 150 grain 270 that went wasn't stopped.
No expert here but have shot a elk with a 50 caliber heavy slow bullet through the lungs and several with a 150 grain from a '06, the damage from the smaller faster caliber was far more devastating to the lungs and internals than the heavy slower bullet. Both types penetrated completely through the heart lung area and exited if no major bones are struck.
Large Meplate's can be expounded on all ya want but in my minimal experience the hydro-shock of the faster bullet does far more damage to internal organs than the slower heavier bullets, but both will get the job done just fine if shots are placed correctly at least on American game.
With a second thought,the lighter faster bullet does need to be constructed to mushroom or expand but stay intact and not fragment.
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- Joined
- Jan 28, 2003
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"H&H, I'm not suggesting that anyone use a .45-70, no matter how hot, on large African game, just that .45-70 in a gun made of modern steel can be loaded a lot hotter than some people recognize."
Bear,
I never suggested that YOU were. Rather I was commenting on a select group of folks who try and make the .45-70 into something that it is not. Kind of like the 4500yard comment we saw on this thread.
I don't know what it is but you mention .45-70 and without fail you'll see some of these ridiculous statements being made.
I own and have killed much game with a .45-70. I promise you much more than any of the guys you see making these ludicrous statements on the net.
I like the old .45-70 but I don't try to convince people that it is anything other than a .45-70.
Bear,
I never suggested that YOU were. Rather I was commenting on a select group of folks who try and make the .45-70 into something that it is not. Kind of like the 4500yard comment we saw on this thread.
I don't know what it is but you mention .45-70 and without fail you'll see some of these ridiculous statements being made.
I own and have killed much game with a .45-70. I promise you much more than any of the guys you see making these ludicrous statements on the net.
I like the old .45-70 but I don't try to convince people that it is anything other than a .45-70.
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Okay...
1. It appears somebody put a quarter into the Wayback Machine with this thread, which was last active in December of 2006.
2. I extend an open invitation to attend the BPCR Silhouette Matches with me in Lodi, WI. We thwack life-size steel buffalo silhouettes out to and beyond 800 yards. No laser rangefinders allowed, BTW.
3. I extend a follow-on invitation to travel with me to Forsyth, MT, for the 14 Jun 2008 annual Quigley shoot, where the buffalo silhouettes are again set up at 800 yards. It's fondly known as ”The biggest rifle shooting event in Eastern Montana since the Custer Massacre.” Leverguns are welcome.
4. I don't suscribe to the theory that our shooting forefathers were such idiots that they couldn't figure target range to save their posteriors. Far from it, they were acutely aware of the loping trajectories of the .38-55, .45-70, etc. I'd go so far as to wager they were considerably more astute than today's WalMart one-box-of-ammo-per-year Point Blank Range magnum shooters with respect to knowing what their weapons capabilities were. Vernier sights were/are graduated for some reason, nicht wahr? Were 1000-yard bison shots common? Probably not. However, I'm confident that I can thwack my bison this year at 400 yards or better, using a 535gr Postell moving at a leisurely 1200fps muzzle velocity, and I wasn't around in the 1870's to absorb the tricks of the trade.
5. Maybe I'm not reading the right gun forum, but as far as I know, nobody is ascribing magical HUNTING qualities to the old .45-70 round, whether it's in the original BP Trapdoor or ohmygawd Level III smokeless loadings. I'd like to see where folks are giving the old round magical heat-seeking Sidewinder attributes, honestly, because then I know it's not just a burr under a certain poster's saddle. I do respect that the Sandy Hook tests proved the round's lethality vs. human targets way out there, and a more recent test at White Sands confirmed the ballistics via a type of counter-battery doppler radar. Aimed fire at that range? No. Think Volley Fire, which is a term dropped from the military lexicon some time ago, once precision guided munitions minimized long-range infantry engagement. However, as the current phase of belted and shortfat magnums makes the cycle once again, I cannot help but noticing that the older, tried-and-true rounds like the .45-70 Government and .30-30 Winchester soldier on, putting meat on the table without fanfare, like they have for over 100 years.
6. There's more than one way to thump Bambi - light and fast vs. heavy and slow. As Ron White points out with respect to heavy and slow,
7. Lest we forget, Karamojo Bell was (in)famous for using the 6.5x54MS and 7x57 Mauser to take dangerous game on the African Continent. How foolhardy is that, relying as a hunter on shot placement and sectional density to get the job done? Likewise, our own Rich Lucibella has made it a matter of public record that he thumped said dangerous game over there using a .45-70 with Garrett loads. The pictures are still up at TFL, IIRC. Go figure, the man should be an absolute bloody smear in a Cape Buffalo rut somewhere, having the unmitigated gall to use a .45-70 vs. a .460 Lott or .470 Nitro Express.
8. The limitations of the .45-70 are mainly a factor of the shooter's skill with respect to arched trajectory. Leverguns are by nature handy things with shorter barrels and rudimentary buckhorn sights - so they do require extra vigilance. Regardless, if you cannot or do not want to work with it, then don't - keep your ranges short, or switch rifles and go for Max Point Blank Range with a belted magnum and big objective scope - leave the old-time skills to others with the initiative to learn the techniques.
1. It appears somebody put a quarter into the Wayback Machine with this thread, which was last active in December of 2006.
2. I extend an open invitation to attend the BPCR Silhouette Matches with me in Lodi, WI. We thwack life-size steel buffalo silhouettes out to and beyond 800 yards. No laser rangefinders allowed, BTW.
3. I extend a follow-on invitation to travel with me to Forsyth, MT, for the 14 Jun 2008 annual Quigley shoot, where the buffalo silhouettes are again set up at 800 yards. It's fondly known as ”The biggest rifle shooting event in Eastern Montana since the Custer Massacre.” Leverguns are welcome.
4. I don't suscribe to the theory that our shooting forefathers were such idiots that they couldn't figure target range to save their posteriors. Far from it, they were acutely aware of the loping trajectories of the .38-55, .45-70, etc. I'd go so far as to wager they were considerably more astute than today's WalMart one-box-of-ammo-per-year Point Blank Range magnum shooters with respect to knowing what their weapons capabilities were. Vernier sights were/are graduated for some reason, nicht wahr? Were 1000-yard bison shots common? Probably not. However, I'm confident that I can thwack my bison this year at 400 yards or better, using a 535gr Postell moving at a leisurely 1200fps muzzle velocity, and I wasn't around in the 1870's to absorb the tricks of the trade.
5. Maybe I'm not reading the right gun forum, but as far as I know, nobody is ascribing magical HUNTING qualities to the old .45-70 round, whether it's in the original BP Trapdoor or ohmygawd Level III smokeless loadings. I'd like to see where folks are giving the old round magical heat-seeking Sidewinder attributes, honestly, because then I know it's not just a burr under a certain poster's saddle. I do respect that the Sandy Hook tests proved the round's lethality vs. human targets way out there, and a more recent test at White Sands confirmed the ballistics via a type of counter-battery doppler radar. Aimed fire at that range? No. Think Volley Fire, which is a term dropped from the military lexicon some time ago, once precision guided munitions minimized long-range infantry engagement. However, as the current phase of belted and shortfat magnums makes the cycle once again, I cannot help but noticing that the older, tried-and-true rounds like the .45-70 Government and .30-30 Winchester soldier on, putting meat on the table without fanfare, like they have for over 100 years.
6. There's more than one way to thump Bambi - light and fast vs. heavy and slow. As Ron White points out with respect to heavy and slow,
7. Lest we forget, Karamojo Bell was (in)famous for using the 6.5x54MS and 7x57 Mauser to take dangerous game on the African Continent. How foolhardy is that, relying as a hunter on shot placement and sectional density to get the job done? Likewise, our own Rich Lucibella has made it a matter of public record that he thumped said dangerous game over there using a .45-70 with Garrett loads. The pictures are still up at TFL, IIRC. Go figure, the man should be an absolute bloody smear in a Cape Buffalo rut somewhere, having the unmitigated gall to use a .45-70 vs. a .460 Lott or .470 Nitro Express.
8. The limitations of the .45-70 are mainly a factor of the shooter's skill with respect to arched trajectory. Leverguns are by nature handy things with shorter barrels and rudimentary buckhorn sights - so they do require extra vigilance. Regardless, if you cannot or do not want to work with it, then don't - keep your ranges short, or switch rifles and go for Max Point Blank Range with a belted magnum and big objective scope - leave the old-time skills to others with the initiative to learn the techniques.
AStone
Member
That's a fine post, G'98. Interesting reading.
(amongst a bunch of other fine posts and more interesting reading...)
Will read it again more carefully later ... but after food ...
... all this talk of buffalo burgers is making me hungry!
(amongst a bunch of other fine posts and more interesting reading...)
Will read it again more carefully later ... but after food ...
... all this talk of buffalo burgers is making me hungry!
So why do people come up on a thread to talk about something else all together? Are they just trying to be a jerk or do they have a valid point? If there were a thread about 9mm and somebody came along and said 10mm is better all around. What would the point be?
An old Irish preist once asked me this"So why is it in the warld thare are more harses arses than thare are harses?"
sit on my reloading bench
take a black powder charge(well it could but who would do that)
point is I can argue and justify anything you want me to but the real question is how will I look in the end?
An old Irish preist once asked me this"So why is it in the warld thare are more harses arses than thare are harses?"
You find this all over the internet
take a 500 gr bullet
sit on my reloading bench
take a black powder charge(well it could but who would do that)
point is I can argue and justify anything you want me to but the real question is how will I look in the end?
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ocharry
Member
ya know i was gona git in here on this and say somethin like at the quigly that on one day them guys have all day to get their sight settings,,and that a good spotter can absolutely make you look like a genius,,,, along with your riflery skills too of course
and that i doubt that most of the old buff hunters took a stand at much over 300 yrds. and the trick to getting a stand was to watch the herd and pick out the LEAD COW,,, and you had to put her down,,at which point the herd would mill around until another LEAD COW would lead off trying to get he herd to follow, at which point the hunter would put her down and while these animals were in this state of confusion the killing field was getting real bloody,,,,did these guys know their guns and the trajectory,,,most of them did,,,their fortune was on the line,,,,,,and they could shoot,,,cause that's what they did
and that IIRC terminal velocity of one of them 500+ grainers FALLING out of trajectory(or the sky) and that is what it is doing,,, is in the 7-800 fps
and that the strike window at 1000 yrds. is only a few feet and at the 1500+ yrds that OL BILLY knocked that indian off his horse the strike window is only a few inches,,,,,,,,, an OL BILLY himself said "it was a lucky shot"..........and i don't think indian died,,,,,,,,,,but it skeert the shucks out of the rest of em and so the adobe walls conflict came to an end
this is all about the black powder guns of days gone by,,,,i don't use to much of that smokyless stuff,,,,,,,,,there is nothing like the smell of that smoke on a cold crisp morning just after the shot
to the OP,, i use my 45-70 a lot and FOR ME,, a 300 yrd shot out of my ol marlin,,,, i would not hesitate,,, i know i can make the shot and that 425 gr. bullit is gona do the job(this rifle has a small tang sight on it that will take it to about 425 yrds)
lots of good stuff here and lots of funny stuff too
H&H that line about the "just a 458 lott" that was too funny,,,, my wife came in here to see what the big joke was,,, i got a purty good laugh out of that one
but i don't think i am gona say anymore,,, it is more fun to sit here and read this stuff
oh by the way HAPPY NEW YEAR THR
and i told myself to just keep my mouth shut and read :banghead:
ocharry
and that i doubt that most of the old buff hunters took a stand at much over 300 yrds. and the trick to getting a stand was to watch the herd and pick out the LEAD COW,,, and you had to put her down,,at which point the herd would mill around until another LEAD COW would lead off trying to get he herd to follow, at which point the hunter would put her down and while these animals were in this state of confusion the killing field was getting real bloody,,,,did these guys know their guns and the trajectory,,,most of them did,,,their fortune was on the line,,,,,,and they could shoot,,,cause that's what they did
and that IIRC terminal velocity of one of them 500+ grainers FALLING out of trajectory(or the sky) and that is what it is doing,,, is in the 7-800 fps
and that the strike window at 1000 yrds. is only a few feet and at the 1500+ yrds that OL BILLY knocked that indian off his horse the strike window is only a few inches,,,,,,,,, an OL BILLY himself said "it was a lucky shot"..........and i don't think indian died,,,,,,,,,,but it skeert the shucks out of the rest of em and so the adobe walls conflict came to an end
this is all about the black powder guns of days gone by,,,,i don't use to much of that smokyless stuff,,,,,,,,,there is nothing like the smell of that smoke on a cold crisp morning just after the shot
to the OP,, i use my 45-70 a lot and FOR ME,, a 300 yrd shot out of my ol marlin,,,, i would not hesitate,,, i know i can make the shot and that 425 gr. bullit is gona do the job(this rifle has a small tang sight on it that will take it to about 425 yrds)
lots of good stuff here and lots of funny stuff too
H&H that line about the "just a 458 lott" that was too funny,,,, my wife came in here to see what the big joke was,,, i got a purty good laugh out of that one
but i don't think i am gona say anymore,,, it is more fun to sit here and read this stuff
oh by the way HAPPY NEW YEAR THR
and i told myself to just keep my mouth shut and read :banghead:
ocharry
pit-sitter
Member
For the wisenheimers who made the comments about NASA and escape velocity and other disparaging remarks about the 45-70 at 1000 or 2000 yards
Read this about shooting at 2500 and 3000.
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/ballistics/sandyhook.htm
Read this about shooting at 2500 and 3000.
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/ballistics/sandyhook.htm
AStone
Member
From the report:
I stand corrected. Clearly, I was wrong.
Next time I need to take down
a (grounded) Pterodactyl at 3000 yds,
I'm reaching for a .45-70.
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