Vern Humphrey
Member
In my humble opinion, there are a lot more hairy-chested computer operators than hairy-chested shooters.
What is the range of a 45/70?
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AStone
Member
Hahahahaha...
Yeah, I'm tall & thin, weigh less than 150 soaking wet. I'm just not quite sure I'll ever do heavy rnds in a .45-70, and if I do a .45-70 at all, I'll probably lean towards a full-sized one with long barrel (rather than 1895G) for the extra weight. Time will tell ...
Vern Humphrey
Member
There was a time when "experts" writing in gun magazines assured us the old punkin' roller was just the thing for "bucking the brush." We know better now. Whenever I'm seized by a desire to buy a .45-70, I wind up asking myself, "What will it do that my .30-06 won't do?"
Buzztail
Member
I like heavy bullets at a reasonable velocity in the .45-70.
If I want speed, I'll take the .204 Ruger. I'm not going to shoot either at anything two miles away
What will it do that a .30-06 won't do?
Uh, go right through a buffalo and drop it in one shot, with hand-cast lead round nose bullets. Then it will do the same thing to a varying hare, without damaging much meat, believe it or not. Used a 520 grain for both, within an hour of each other.
Modern hunting rounds rely on terminal performance, i.e. fancy bullets going the right velocity to expand properly at the right depth, to work well. That means you have to match the bullet to the velocity and the type game, to get them to work right, and also that you can tear up meat as they veer off in various directions.
The big .45-70 works about the same at whatever velocity, no expansion, no fancy bullet required, no fragmentation or jacket separation, nothing else to worry about. Doesn't tend to "veer off" inside the game, either.
And a big bullet trumps velocity and energy when it comes to dropping big game. Otherwise, a .223 would work well on Brown Bear. No need to worry about some rule of thumb like "1000 ft-lb for whitetail" with a .45-70. You don't even need that for buffalo.
The fact is, just about everything about a modern bullet is a high-tech way to get a small, light flat-shooting round to perform like a bigger bullet that doesn't shoot flat, when it hits its target. And compromises are never the same as the real deal.
Again, the real bitch is the .45-70's trajectory. But for on-game performance, assuming you hit the game in the first place, it's hard to beat.
Uh, go right through a buffalo and drop it in one shot, with hand-cast lead round nose bullets. Then it will do the same thing to a varying hare, without damaging much meat, believe it or not. Used a 520 grain for both, within an hour of each other.
Modern hunting rounds rely on terminal performance, i.e. fancy bullets going the right velocity to expand properly at the right depth, to work well. That means you have to match the bullet to the velocity and the type game, to get them to work right, and also that you can tear up meat as they veer off in various directions.
The big .45-70 works about the same at whatever velocity, no expansion, no fancy bullet required, no fragmentation or jacket separation, nothing else to worry about. Doesn't tend to "veer off" inside the game, either.
And a big bullet trumps velocity and energy when it comes to dropping big game. Otherwise, a .223 would work well on Brown Bear. No need to worry about some rule of thumb like "1000 ft-lb for whitetail" with a .45-70. You don't even need that for buffalo.
The fact is, just about everything about a modern bullet is a high-tech way to get a small, light flat-shooting round to perform like a bigger bullet that doesn't shoot flat, when it hits its target. And compromises are never the same as the real deal.
Again, the real bitch is the .45-70's trajectory. But for on-game performance, assuming you hit the game in the first place, it's hard to beat.
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Bear,
On big game there is simply no substitute for large bore heavy bullets..
The British figured out a long time ago that a .450 or bigger bore 500 gr+ pill at 2150FPS was the magic number for heavy game the world over. It was true 120 years ago and it is true today.
The .45-70 is severely lacking in velocity but is still an effective killer none the less due to bore diameter and bullet weight.
I personally won't have anything to due with one on a African dangerous game. But it is fine for everything else.
The big British nitro rounds are very similar to what you've described, performance wise. They just give substantially more in every regard.
On big game there is simply no substitute for large bore heavy bullets.
.The British figured out a long time ago that a .450 or bigger bore 500 gr+ pill at 2150FPS was the magic number for heavy game the world over. It was true 120 years ago and it is true today.
The .45-70 is severely lacking in velocity but is still an effective killer none the less due to bore diameter and bullet weight.
I personally won't have anything to due with one on a African dangerous game. But it is fine for everything else.
The big British nitro rounds are very similar to what you've described, performance wise. They just give substantially more in every regard.
Vern Humphrey
Member
I can do the same with a .30-06, if you're talking about the American bison. As for African game, Ernest Hemingway killed a rhino with a .30-06, using a 220-grain solid.
There is one in every crowd every one talking about 45-70 and you come along with 30-06...WELL HERE IS A TOPPER FOR YOU TRY 50-90 SHARPS(more joke here than serious ok)
as far as a rhino goes there is a reason african countries mandate a minimum caliber for large/dangerous game........also he was really close to the rhino and it was not a full grown one either IIRC
Had you said .416-anything I would be allot less apt to argue the point.
Sure you can do it. But you cannot do it the same way, the more reliable way.
A 30-06 bullet is not made to crush large bone and stay on course. It is at best a medium game round that can be used on large game. The bullet will fall apart when trying to do the job of the 45-70 through thick bone. A bullet with a large flat meplat, especially a heavy one like 405, 430, or 500gr, is going to crush heavy bone and keep charging its way down the path it is supposed to take. This is a characteristic that comes with the correct shape and weight, two things the 30-06 does not have. If energy is a third factor, then I believe it is safe to say that the 30-06 strikes out.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Actually, it is -- we have .30 caliber bullets that do very well in that department.
How many can see a target at 1000 yds with open sights? Taking shots at 500 yds Windage,Elevation,Skill and luck is what comes into play. Has anyone shot at 250yds+ and felt like the bullet took a long time to hit? I had a 444 Marlin and sold cuss it for a bolt action but after shooting my brothers 45-70 browning last summer all I could say was Dammm I want a 45-70
cuss it for a bolt action but after shooting my brothers 45-70 browning last summer all I could say was Dammm I want a 45-70ok dude give it up will ya
And your point is?...........oh aggrevation of others perhaps............yes some .30 rounds will kill big animals also is that what you are looking for? :banghead: there now you have it PLEASE MOVE ON
.......Don't be a stugeVern Humphrey
Member
This started when I said every time I am tempted to buy a .45-70, I always ask, "What will it do my .30-06 won't do?"
It appears I have stumbled into some secret religion, and am now accused of heresy.
Do I have to wear sack cloth and ashes for daring to believe the .30-06 will do everything the .45-70 will do? And a lot more besides?
It appears I have stumbled into some secret religion, and am now accused of heresy.
Do I have to wear sack cloth and ashes for daring to believe the .30-06 will do everything the .45-70 will do? And a lot more besides?
Vern Humphrey
Member
Actually not. Wind drift is proportionate to Ballistic Coefficient. There are .30 caliber bullets with much higher ballistic coefficients than the heaviest .45 bullets.
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Vern,
Are you saying that a .458, 500gr Barnes SD .313 and And BC nearing 500 is a slouch?
lets not even talk about the 600gr and heavier .458 bullets.
There are lots of choices in the .458 diameter world of bullets.
Of course a .45-70 is seriously sucking hind tit with 500gr and heavier bullets.
Are you saying that a .458, 500gr Barnes SD .313 and And BC nearing 500 is a slouch?
lets not even talk about the 600gr and heavier .458 bullets.
There are lots of choices in the .458 diameter world of bullets.
Of course a .45-70 is seriously sucking hind tit with 500gr and heavier bullets.
Harve Curry
Member
I think the 30-06 would kill as good as any 45-70 if it were shot out of a Trap door Springfield or 1874 Sharps.
It is intersting to note the velocity loose of medium to heavy weight, fat subsonic bullets is so slight, when compared to the rate that super sonic rounds shed their velocity.
It is intersting to note the velocity loose of medium to heavy weight, fat subsonic bullets is so slight, when compared to the rate that super sonic rounds shed their velocity.
Vern Humphrey
Member
I am saying that there are .30 caliber bullets of equal BC -- and you can launch them quite a bit faster.
Yes, indeed. If you need an elephant gun, the .45-70 is not your best choice.
22-rimfire
Member
Chuckle Chuckle.... I love this thread! It does seem that it is a religion just like EBR's. I'm not really interested in a 45-70, but a 375 H&H, that's another matter....
Vern Humphrey
Member
Actually, my "heavy" rifle is Bigfoot Wallace, a custom '03 Springfield in .35 Brown-Whelen. It drives a 225-grain Nosler PJ an honest 2,800 fps. With a rifle like that, I'd like to have a .375 H&H, but can't justify it as long as I only hunt in North America.
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Vern,
You have unknowingly entered the realm of the of one of the weirdest gun nut cults on the planet.
I have heard some of the most unreal stuff you can possibly imagine coming from the collective mouths of .45-70 shooters.
Example, I was once told by member of the .45-70 cult that "IF" he were ever to go to Africa to hunt dangerous thing s that he would rather have his .45-70 than my .458 Lott. When I inquired as to why he claimed that the .45-70 has superior penetration to the .458Lott.
I then inquired as to the reason which of course he'd spent a lot of time on the Garret ammo web site and quoted some of Mr. Garrets marketing info from his sight.
So I asked the red faced fanatical young man if I were to down load my .458 Lott to match the velocity of his .45-70, you know wipe 800 FPS right off the top of my .458 Lott loads, and to use the same lead bullets if it would then be as an effective round as his .45-70?
Answer, and I kid you not.......
No it wouldn't because it is still "only just" a .458Lott......
I get this kind of stuff from the worshipers of the .45-70 idol far to often especially when it comes to the subjects of long range and dangerous game capability.
I mean just have a look right here on this thread. We have several claims of artillery like range capability with the round. I am talking about stuff that is so far beyond reality that it shouldn't even be entertained as a thought.
Mention .45-70 and they come out of the wood work!!
You have unknowingly entered the realm of the of one of the weirdest gun nut cults on the planet.
I have heard some of the most unreal stuff you can possibly imagine coming from the collective mouths of .45-70 shooters.
Example, I was once told by member of the .45-70 cult that "IF" he were ever to go to Africa to hunt dangerous thing s that he would rather have his .45-70 than my .458 Lott. When I inquired as to why he claimed that the .45-70 has superior penetration to the .458Lott.
I then inquired as to the reason which of course he'd spent a lot of time on the Garret ammo web site and quoted some of Mr. Garrets marketing info from his sight.
So I asked the red faced fanatical young man if I were to down load my .458 Lott to match the velocity of his .45-70, you know wipe 800 FPS right off the top of my .458 Lott loads, and to use the same lead bullets if it would then be as an effective round as his .45-70?
Answer, and I kid you not.......
No it wouldn't because it is still "only just" a .458Lott......
I get this kind of stuff from the worshipers of the .45-70 idol far to often especially when it comes to the subjects of long range and dangerous game capability.
I mean just have a look right here on this thread. We have several claims of artillery like range capability with the round. I am talking about stuff that is so far beyond reality that it shouldn't even be entertained as a thought.
Mention .45-70 and they come out of the wood work!!
That was my point.
You can screw around with bullets and loads for a .30-06. It's arguably the best round for someone who reloads and sights in his rifle as a hobby. It does shoot well, and I have one.
What a .45-70 does differently is this: You work up a load that shoots well in the gun, and you just use it. For everything. Won't wreck the meat on an antelope, and you can turn around and drop a bison with the next round. With black powder, if you so desire, even. And the .45-70 works well in a neat little lever carbine, as well as an oversized revolver, if you're so inclined.
The .30-06 might be the ideal reloader's platform. The .45-70 is the ideal round for someone who doesn't like working up 100 different loads and buying all sorts of bullets, but who does enjoy memorizing trajectory numbers.
Is the .45-70 the end-all cartridge? I didn't say that. Is it an elephant gun? No, though Buffalo Bore pushes it closer than someone might think. Do I even own one? No, I borrowed one for a while. I might get one, at some point. Is it a religion? Not to me.
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Ahh the .375H&H.
Now there is a true long range thumper.
I shoot a 270 gr Barnes TSX @ 2750FPS talk about a long range buff thumper!
SD near of nearly 300 and a BC approaching 500.
Now we are worshiping at my idol!!
Us collective gun nuts all have at least one...
Now there is a true long range thumper.
I shoot a 270 gr Barnes TSX @ 2750FPS talk about a long range buff thumper!
SD near of nearly 300 and a BC approaching 500.
Now we are worshiping at my idol!!
Us collective gun nuts all have at least one...
Vern Humphrey
Member
There's a law that says people who use the .30-06 have to keep changing loads?!?!
In fact, a lot of .30-06 shooters like to stick with one load -- and with this advantage; the .30-06 will deliver at short range and at longer ranges. I can be hunting white tails in a swamp one day, and antelope on the plains the next, and still use the same load and sight setting.
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