What is wrong with the factory?

[Jim K]

I continually see questions like "Where can I get parts for..." and "Who can I get to fix...."

In many cases, the questioner either states up front that he will not send the gun to the factory or query the factory about parts, or he replies to suggestions with "no factory" or words to that effect.

Obviously, many older guns can no longer be repaired at the factory, or the company that made them is out of business. But for recent or currently made guns, it would seem to me that the best source of repair and parts would be the factory that made the gun. I don't mean that gunsmiths and custom gun companies can't do a good job, but the factory has the parts, equipment, and skilled labor to do the job right. Further, factories very often do repairs free of charge in order to build good will, something gunsmiths cannot afford to do.

So, how about it? Why do some folks automatically reject factory repair? Why is the factory the LAST place people seem to think about when it comes to fixing a gun, even a new, current production gun?

Jim

 

[1911Tuner]

Factory

Hi Jim,

Don't know about all the questions, but I might be able to shed some light on warranty repairs on the current crop of...I guess you can call them 1911s.

Many times, there's a long wait for the turnaround, and with the trend of guns getting "lost" in transit, they're not altogether comfortable with sending the guns away. Not often, but not exactly rare either...there's the issue of having the same problems with the guns after two or even three trips back...
and all too often, the blame is placed on operator error...limp grip or ammo that the gun didn't like, and other such pass-the-buck type nonesense.
I correct functional problems on guns that have been back with no results. Sometimes they've been back more than once, and most of the time, the fix is dead simple. So my question is...If I can spot the problem and fix it in 30 minutes...why can't THEY?

The third point is that...with many defective factory parts that are the direct cause of the problems, the "repaired" guns come back with a new part that's exaclty like the other one. I don't have to tell you of all people here about parts and even entire guns being far out of spec. Recent issues with Springfield extractors and ejectors are one such example. Why send the gun in for a part replacement when they're just gonna install more of the same that caused the problem to start with? Why not save yourself a headache and a wait when you can solve it yourself in a few minutes for about 30 bucks with a new extractor or magazine...or even a magazine spring or follower?

I recently had the opportunity to repair a Colt that had been back to the factory twice...to a couple of local smiths...and finally a top-gun custom smith complete with a 6-month backlog...for a complete rebuild... and still the gun wouldn't function. The fix took about an hour and a half, and the owner reports no further problems. So, the fourth reason may be that many of the factory armorers just don't know HOW to fix the guns if it takes more know-how than dropping in another part or polishing a feed ramp.

Bad barrel fit? Drop in another one and send it back. Won't feed?
Polish the ramp and send it back. Won't extract? Stick another one in and send it back. What's that you say? The same gun is back again?? Tell the guy that he must be limp-wristing or that he has to use ammo Brand X and Z, but not Brand Y. It'll only work with X and Z. If that won't do it, he must not be chanting the right mantra before he pulls the trigger.

 

[wally]

Not to mention, unless the factory pays for shipping, it'll cost you from $26 to $53 to ship a gun back by FedEx/UPS if you don't have an FFL.

--wally.

 

[Standing Wolf]

...the factory has the parts, equipment, and skilled labor to do the job right...

Is that the same factory and "skilled labor" that didn't build the gun right in the oft-cited "first place"?

One of the reasons I've been buying many more used than new guns is that an awful lot of new guns obviously weren't built right. When the parts don't even fit together smoothly in the display case, it's time to mosey on down to the used guns display case and see what might be of interest.

 

[HD]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh , this was not a good thing for me to see this morning ...

i do not depend on the factory (except for sig and beretta) to ever do a single damm'd thing right ...
SA is the most obvious offender ...
the 'factory new' SA extractor that i aquired from a vendor to replace a defective part shipped on a gun was just as defective...
the main reason i gave up on 1911's was the constant out of spec parts and the IMGAS,(IIRT),S,M attitude of the people running things (no , deb , i don't mean you)
it just got to be to much...
now i carry a sig 245 or my beretta 92 elite without worry about function or breakage...
sorry denny , but the current crop of 1911's have cured me of the genre for life...
i'd trust a glock 17 before i'd trust anybodys 1911's of recent manufacture...
i have not been without a 1911 for the last 35 years , but there are now better , more reliable guns out there...

 

[Jim K]

Actually, my post was partly serious, and partly just to see what the responses would be. I guess my mistake was posting on a board with so many "1911" fans. I know all the problems of the so-called "1911's" and the makers' very loose ideas on specs, quality and customer service.

But the idea that "the factory is no good" seems to have permeated other areas; I have heard "I don't trust the factory" about Remington, Winchester, Ruger, S&W and Colt, all of whom have pretty good customer service. And this attitude is not because of previous factory failure, but simply an automatic idea that the factory is no good at repairs. It seems that the old saying about bad apples spoiling the barrel is true.

Thanks for sharing and yes, for many makers, especially of 1911 clones, I agree.

Jim

 

[f4t9r]

Unless the factory fixes under warrenty , have you looked at the pricing from the factory shops for repairs, from what I have seen its steep and one could find a better deal through someone else

 

[1911Tuner]

Factory Fixed?

As fate would have it, I just got through with a nice stainless Colt Series 80
GM that had been returned to Colt for feeding issues. They replaced the slide, among a few other parts. The owner...gc70 from 1911.org...noticed that the empty case rims were being battered badly, and thought it was from the ejector. I told him to bring the gun today, and I'd have a look.

It took about 10 seconds to spot the problem. 15 on the outside.

The problem was a badly machined breechface, in which about a 16th inch
of the side opposite the extractor had a definite step all the way into the corner, and was bending the rims badly. I corrected it as best I could with
what I had on hand...and because I couldn't find the tool that I use for the job... but it needs just a bit more to clean up the corner. Test-firing produced just a very slightly bent rim. I'll finish the job when I can locate the missing tool.

The other thing that jumped out at me was the fact that the extractor fell out of the slide under its own weight, having zero deflection to apply tension. Colt probably discovered that a correctly tensioned extractor was producing failures to go to battery, so instead of finding the real problem with the breechface, they just straightened the extractor to let the rim glance sideways off off the step and let the gun go to battery. As you can imagine, ejection was a bit weak and erratic, but they probaby either didn't catch that...if they even bothered to test-fire it...or they didn't give a rip that the brass was dribbling out of the port. "Hey! It fed, it extracted, and it ejected. Send it on home!"

This isn't a rare isolated incident. I see a lot of this kind of thing from all manufacturers.

Excellent factory service? Expert, trained armorers? Gimme a break. This was Gunsmithing 101.

 

[gc70]

I guess I should weigh in on this topic since I love Colt pistols, but the company is not sacrosanct.

I bought a new 1991 and immediately experienced problems. Since the pistol was new, I decided to ship it back to Colt and let them fix the problem. If nothing else, it would be a reminder to Colt to get things right the first time. It only took 2 weeks for Colt to slap a new slide, extractor and firing pin stop on the pistol. When I tested the "repaired" pistol, the initial problem was gone, but the pistol had an entirely new problem. As Tuner said, he spotted the problem with the breechface immediately and after he said "look at this" even a dummy like me could tell it was not right without any further explanation.

At this point, I'm not very pleased with Colt's service. Did they even try to find the cause of the pistol's initial problem or did they throw some parts on the pistol and ship it out? It is painfully clear that they did not look at the parts or check whether the pistol was really "fixed."

I fully agree with Jim that some makers have excellent customer service. Sig turned around a new P226ST for me in 2 days, making a gritty DA trigger pull into one that was buttery smooth. But my experience with the 1991 makes me wonder whether Colt's customer service consists of armorers or parts installers. I am just glad that I live close enough to Tuner that I do not have to play repair roulette with Colt again.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Might also add that my dogs took to Randy and Hunter in two seconds flat.
They passed the Collie Test, and that makes'em okay in my book. The dogs ain't been wrong yet.

 

[gc70]

Dogs! In the last 12 years, mine have disliked precisely three people who have been in my house... and all three of them turned out to be bad apples.

Thanks again, Tuner.

 

[1911Tuner]

Colt

Just a note to say that I don't have anything against Colt or its customer service department. In fact, I've have nothing but positive experiences when dealing with them personally. I've also seen very good work after a gun has been back to them...but I've also seen some that was pretty shoddy too.
Randy's experience was one such example. This was nothing more than
carelessness, lack of knowledge, or lack of givin' a rip about whether it was right or not...or a little of all three. The problem should have been caught before the gun was returned. If the armorer had either been well-trained or the least bit careful about his work, it WOULD have been caught...because it jumped out at me. I could see it even with aging eyes that probably need quadrafocals by this point.

Yeah...I know that if he sends the gun in again, they'll put a new slide on it and check it more closely before sending it back...but would that one be right? If not, and it was wrong in a different area...would they see it? Would they even know if it WAS wrong? When a company that's been building 1911 pistols for nearly a hundred years ships one...not from the assembly line, but from the warranty station...with zero extractor tension...I have to wonder who's at the helm.

 

[P95Carry]

Jim - I generally consider the ''hassle/cost/delay'' factors. They usually put me off having to do a return.

One simple example - I have a cheapo plinker - Phoenix HP-22 - not a quality gun of course, everyone knows that. It did tho early on have a prob with mag release catch coming apart - it had two sides sorta ''riveted/peeened'' together. I am an angineer (not a gunsmith tho) but did sort that out quite easily - result satisfactory - no costs no delays.

I had a small prob with my SIG 226 - worked out what it was ( a lube thing actually) but a call to SIG and a chat with someone - and some patience, saved a very unnecessary return, which I suspect some folks might have done straight away.

I do think I would send off one of my earlier S&W revo's if a serious problem - somewhat put those in a separate category.

To summarize let me say - I will rarely want to rush to send off a gun - not anyways until my own appraisal or that of someone else more knowledgable, suggests it is the only way to go.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Is that the same factory and "skilled labor" that didn't build the gun right in the oft-cited "first place"?

Very good concern! +1

Strangely, this sort of logic seem elludes many Kel Tec owners. One of the things Kel Tec owners like is the fact that the factory has excellent customer service. There seems to be a lot of Kel Tec owner who rave about the customer service taking care of the owner and fixing the problem. Obviously, too many owers with first hand knowledge of the customer service means that they manufacturing part of the operation is having significant problems with quality control.

 

[armoredman]

I have had only one gun I blame on the assemblers....Century Arms...whyo ruind what could have been a nice CETME.
All my CZs have been excellent, and my Tanfoglios were all stellar. I only dealt with a manufacturer once, with an old Taurus revolver, and they fixed it.

 

[txgho1911]

Spare carry piece

I am sad to admit that if I have a complete breakdown I can not cure with a spring replacement I may have to schedule some days off for a trip to Georgia.
I wish I had three, 3, sinco 5" 1911s to rotate as carry weapons. I only have the one. Might take driving all night and skined knees in the mornin to get back in order.

 

[Old Fuff]

One has to wonder, was the first slide on the Colt in question as bad as the one they replaced it with? Also, was the part inspected for defects when it was made? It would appear not, which is greatly different that what used to be the way things were done at Colt. As Tuner is aware, older Colts are covered with tiny, little letters and numbers stamped into the metal by floor inspectors that checked just about everything. It is improbable that what gets by today would have ended up in a gun then.

On the other hand a number of companies – Smith & Wesson and Ruger to name two – have service departments with excellent reputations, at least for the moment. But the more I see of newer guns the better the old ones look. What we really need is a company that doesn’t have a repair department – because they don’t need one…

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Hard to say Fuff...but I'd guess that there was at least a chance that the original slide had the same problem. The gun was first returned for a feeding problem...and Colt replaced the slide. Since slide replacement to cure a feeding issue is a little overkill...odds are that the same badly machined breechface was there. Rather than send it to the shop to correct it, they just slapped another slide on it without a close examination of the breechface.

As described above...With correct extractor tension, the gun wouldn't have returned to battery reliably...so tension was taken off the extractor until it would. Either that, or they grabbed an extractor that fell in the hole with
no tension...saw that the feed problem was "solved"...and boxed it up.

Either scenario is unacceptable.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Just to play the "devil's advocate" for a moment.

Rant mode on

I think a lot of folks (to a certain extent me included) believe that if the factor had made it right in the first place it would not have broken.

My series of Chevy trucks comes to mind as I write this. While I do take it to the dealer occasionally, after 3 Chevy blazer's in a row, I cannot believe that I am stupid enough to buy another one of these things and I cannot believe that Chevy cannot fix their basic engineering flaws after all of those tries. For example, the windshield washer tank cracked (again). This part appears to last about 10 years and then fails. Why can't Chevy make one that lasts 20 or 30 years? Looking at my records today, I see I am due for a transmission failure. The truck is only 12 years old, but all of the prior Blazer's I had all had a transmission rebuild of some type between 10 and 13 years. I could go on and on about bad radiator caps, EGR valves, sqeeky tailgates, bad electronics, faulty sensors, failing anti-lock brakes, etc. I really think GM assumes I will only run the truck 5 years and then sell it and buy another one. Why I bought 3 in a row is beside me....


So, Why not the factory? Well because the factory made it so it broke in the first place. If they or the engineering department had done their job right in the first place we would not be in this mess.


Rant mode off

:banghead: Another day spent rebuilding the 12 year old Chevy. Time to start looking at a Toyota....

 

[Vic]

factory broke guns...

If anyone thinks that the service 1911's/A1's didnt have their problems through the ages...think again. Many that were released during the 50's and 60's to the general public ended getting sent out to be accursized and customized. Since they were not a primary combat weapon, their little querks were allowed to slip by. Many GI's in the field did their own mods to enhance performance with stock parts to make them more dependable and accurate. The guns used for acceptance trials were the "best of the best", but that is not what the average GI was issued. A standard GI as issued 1911 would jam/misfeed or whatever at any given time no matter what the trials guns did (ask anyone who carried one in Viet-Nam). This is a fact based on design. Another fact is that the 1911's for the most part, did not fail at a critical moment (dumb luck?) thus commanding respect and admiration by the people who carried them. As far as new ones today, I have found many to be intolerable right out of the box. Ruger Vaquero hit 2 foot to the left. Taurus revolvers that locked up because the frame warped under factory loaded ammo, or you could not hit the same place twice. Taurus 92/101's that fan from left to right but never hit center to point of aim. Ruger P89DC that the only way to hit the target is to throw the gun at it. I have yet to buy a revolver or auto that nails a target out of the box (ruger MKI target being the exception). As long as we keep buying their junk, they will continue to produce it (and cut quality in the process). If the factory quality people did their jobs, a lot of production guns would be re-worked or never see the public at all. I'm not saying they are all bad but you would be hard pressed to find a good one out of the box. Hummm $500.00 paper weights?

 

[mister2]

the larger picture

Jim,

Although your question uses guns as the specific example, I think that, in addition to everything else said above, there is the issue of consumerism (for lack of a better word), whose #1 assumption seems to be that ordinary grunts get better service for the same cost, or same service for lower cost, from the independents, ...or, by doing it themselves.

Why do people shop in warehouses? Why do they go to Jiffy Lube? When was the last time my camel-back, small-block Chevrolet went back to a Chevy dealer? (ROFL)

Not everything people do is completely rational, granted. But you asked the question....

Happy New Year !!

 

[1911Tuner]

Best of the Best

Howdy Vic and welcome aboard.

A few points on yours...

I've had many dozens...possibly hundreds...of original WW1 and WW2 era
Colt, Rand, Ithaca, Union Switch, etc. pistols in my hands over the last 40-odd years, and rarely have I had a problem with one that wasn't worn out or
"enhanced in the field" to death. Even the ones that were failry badly worn worked fine. I have a 1919 Colt that's well above average for its age, and a Remington Rand that looks like it hasn't had a box of ammo through it...along with a pristine Union Switch & Signal that will feed hollowpoints and even lead Semi-Wadcutters with boring reliability...from the old "Hardball Only" magazines, as did my '43 and '45 GI Colts even before I rebuilt and rebarrelled both. As far as I can tell, these guns are original or correct for the era.

I've also had personal experience with a early 1920's production commercial
Colt that was stored in condition one for over 60 years...and it functioned perfectly with the magazine and the ammo that it was stored with.

The 1911s and 1911A1s that were issued in Vietnam were pretty well worn out by that time, and even so, I rarely saw a decently maintained pistol malfunction when I was there. Some were so loose that you could almost
bet on being able to field-strip'em if you shook'em hard...but they worked.

As far as the customized 50s and 60s era guns go, I've seen and handled several of those too. They seemed to produce more malfunctions than the
bone-stock examples, mainly due to being overtightened during the accurizing process...and only a few that were hand-built by the really talented smiths and armorers were markedly more accurate than the average unworn pistol...
and a few of the gilt-edged stockers outshot the "enhanced" guns.

Again...A standing offer to all who are within driving distance of Lexington, NC may come and witness some of my old unaltered USGI pistols gobble about any hollowpoint or H&G SWC that you can throw at'em.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Tuner,

I do not doubt one bit that a properly set up (read as originally intended) old Colt from the Pre-WWII period would handle any bullet profile conceived. I remember being shown that a nice pre-war commercial colt would feed empty casings into the chamber routinely.

So, here is my contention. Back in the pre-war period, the Engineers figured out what would work and what would last. Cost reduction did not trash their design, planned obsolescence did not exist, and the workman in the factory valued/cherished the good paying jobs they had and took pride in there work. Frankly I am not sure any of those statements can be made in regards to current production goods.

This is the rub. Some of us figure if the factory had designed it right, and the workmanship was put into the product with a decent quality materials, then it would last and we would not have to have it fixed by the folks that made it wrong in the first place.


For me, I would much rather pay more for a quality product then buy inferior stuff over and over again. This could pertain to Toyota vs. Chevy, Baer vs. Colt, Freedom Arms vs. Rossi, Redding vs. Lee or even MagnePlaner vs. RadioShack. Quality costs more and some of us would rather pay more for fewer things that last a lifetime, then less and constantly be throwing it out or sending it in to get it fixed again...

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Peter wrote:

>For me, I would much rather pay more for a quality product then buy inferior stuff over and over again. This could pertain to Toyota vs. Chevy, Baer vs. Colt, Freedom Arms vs. Rossi, Redding vs. Lee or even MagnePlaner vs. RadioShack. Quality costs more and some of us would rather pay more for fewer things that last a lifetime, then less and constantly be throwing it out or sending it in to get it fixed again...<
*****************************

Amen and Amen!

 

[Old Fuff]

I agree with Peter, but what yanks my chain is when you pay for (supposed) quality and then find out it isn't there. At least in the old days you usually got what you paid for, and if it wasn't right the maker fixed it quickly, and often for free. Some of today's manufacturers still meet that standard, but there aren't many.