georgeduz
Member
i think older guns where built better,there used to be people called craftmens,but they all die along time ago/
What is wrong with the factory?
- Thread starter Jim K
- Start date
- Status
Oscar Orum
Member
craftsman
Georgeduz,
I understand your point but I disagree with you. There are skilled craftsman who care around. You can talk with them on this board. They are not hidden. There are far more braggarts who claim good works and we must have the knowledge and sense to root them out for what they are and hope not to deal with them and that they will go broke and go away. But to say the old days are gone and nothing good remains is not taken as gospel by this novice of 65 years. Pride and good works do exist and we must find it, share it and treasure it. end of sermon
Georgeduz,
I understand your point but I disagree with you. There are skilled craftsman who care around. You can talk with them on this board. They are not hidden. There are far more braggarts who claim good works and we must have the knowledge and sense to root them out for what they are and hope not to deal with them and that they will go broke and go away. But to say the old days are gone and nothing good remains is not taken as gospel by this novice of 65 years. Pride and good works do exist and we must find it, share it and treasure it. end of sermon
Versifier
Member
Quality control begins at home.
I'm sure I'm not the only one here who reads Gun Tests every month. An illuminating magazine. Their comments about customer service departments, both positive and negative, have a lot to say about the companies whose products they review. Many don't give a flying...whatever.
But still, the point remains that they should work right coming from the factory. No amount of their whining or our anger will change that, unless we are aware of the few that build them right and then treat you right when you have an issue with them, and simply refuse to do business with the others.
I get sick of seeing shoddily made firearms marketed at bargain basement prices to fools convinced that they got a "good deal". No one wants to hear, "Why didn't you buy a real one the first time?" when they bring their problem to the gunsmith. No one did when I was working on them, but it reached the point where I would not work on many of the "good deals", because often I could not do what they expected: wave my magic screwdriver and turn a poorly designed and manufactured piece of ...fertilizer into a functional and reliable firearm.
The songs went like this (violins, if you please!):
"How can I get my (cheap Italian made muzzleloader sold by a very large and famous mail order distributor - there, I said it without outraging their legal department) to work right?" Buy the Thompson you were too cheap to get in the first place and don't whine at me! Or "Why doesn't my brand new (cheap S. American made lookalike of reputable American product) revolver shoot like the one they wrote about in the latest issue of Bullshooter Magazine?" Because it's made of inferior materials with no quality control beyond checking to see if it's been polished correctly and the tolerances are so loose and the timing so bad you can throw rocks more accurately at 25yards.
Send it back to the factory?!!
Good luck!!!
Usually I exercised more self control, but sometimes I just had to tell it like it is. The ones with a clue listened and came back, the others, well, some people can't even learn from their own mistakes. Darwin 101, I guess.
I'm sure I'm not the only one here who reads Gun Tests every month. An illuminating magazine. Their comments about customer service departments, both positive and negative, have a lot to say about the companies whose products they review. Many don't give a flying...whatever.
But still, the point remains that they should work right coming from the factory. No amount of their whining or our anger will change that, unless we are aware of the few that build them right and then treat you right when you have an issue with them, and simply refuse to do business with the others.
I get sick of seeing shoddily made firearms marketed at bargain basement prices to fools convinced that they got a "good deal". No one wants to hear, "Why didn't you buy a real one the first time?" when they bring their problem to the gunsmith. No one did when I was working on them, but it reached the point where I would not work on many of the "good deals", because often I could not do what they expected: wave my magic screwdriver and turn a poorly designed and manufactured piece of ...fertilizer into a functional and reliable firearm.
The songs went like this (violins, if you please!):
"How can I get my (cheap Italian made muzzleloader sold by a very large and famous mail order distributor - there, I said it without outraging their legal department) to work right?" Buy the Thompson you were too cheap to get in the first place and don't whine at me! Or "Why doesn't my brand new (cheap S. American made lookalike of reputable American product) revolver shoot like the one they wrote about in the latest issue of Bullshooter Magazine?" Because it's made of inferior materials with no quality control beyond checking to see if it's been polished correctly and the tolerances are so loose and the timing so bad you can throw rocks more accurately at 25yards.
Send it back to the factory?!!
Good luck!!!Usually I exercised more self control, but sometimes I just had to tell it like it is. The ones with a clue listened and came back, the others, well, some people can't even learn from their own mistakes. Darwin 101, I guess.
Peter M. Eick
Member
Please let me pontificate for a second.....
Lets say you own say "Colt" and decided you wanted to make a Million Dollars profit on say the "Python". You could make and sell say a 1000 of them at say $1200 and put $200 into metal, manpower, shipping and distribution, or you could make 500 of them and sell them at $2500 and put 2.5 times the money into manpower meaning fitting, polishing and testing. Lets face it, shipping, distribution and metal are not really going to change to much from a relatively cheap to an expensive gun.
So the business question is, do I think I can make more money by selling a 1000 at $1200 or 500 at $2500. I think there is a perception at the big manufacturers that the price point for a gun needs to be at or less then $1000 per gun. Thus the quality is reduced to achieve a reliable profit at $1000 per gun base costs. Since most folks don't shoot much, then a higher percentage of quality reduction can be accepted and the few that do complain can be fixed in the service department.
It is my opinion (and mine alone) that Winchester, Remington, Savage, Colt, S&W, Kimber, Ruger, Glock, CZ and now SIG and H&K are all playing some sort of variation on what I described above.
Now the companies like Ed Brown, Baer, Wilson, Sharps, etc are playing a different game. They have established a brand loyalty and a high quality product that costs big bucks. Folks that buy say a Baer expect it to work, be tight as heck and do not expect to have problems with extractors, ejectors or mags. They expect to break in the gun and then have no problems because they bought quality. I venture to say that most of the buyers of these companies tend to buy multiple copies (like me) because they appreciate the quality they get.
So why can't say Colt just say the heck with it, we are going to make the best possible quality Python or 1911 like we used to and only sell a few of them for big bucks? Because there reputation is not developed in this market and they don't have the quantity of skilled resources to do the job right.
I have seen this problem in my industry many times. Once a company goes from doing very high quality work and drops down and goes after quantity, it is virtually impossible (so far) for the company to climb back up and be considered a quality shop.
You can't have it both ways, you either build quality or you build quantity! If you chose quality, then by god make sure every product is real quality because if the customer equates you with quantity then your company is sunk. If you build quantity, then don't ever let yourself get off the treadmill of new products because if you do, the lack of perceived value in your product will kill your company quickly.
Finally keep in mind that the number of gun collecting public is getting smaller every year and the internet has made many in the public much more knowledgeable about the past sins of a company.
Remember, nothing can destroy a companies reputation quicker then a bad product and a smart vocal end user with a digital camera and a web site to post his pictures of your bad product!
Lets say you own say "Colt" and decided you wanted to make a Million Dollars profit on say the "Python". You could make and sell say a 1000 of them at say $1200 and put $200 into metal, manpower, shipping and distribution, or you could make 500 of them and sell them at $2500 and put 2.5 times the money into manpower meaning fitting, polishing and testing. Lets face it, shipping, distribution and metal are not really going to change to much from a relatively cheap to an expensive gun.
So the business question is, do I think I can make more money by selling a 1000 at $1200 or 500 at $2500. I think there is a perception at the big manufacturers that the price point for a gun needs to be at or less then $1000 per gun. Thus the quality is reduced to achieve a reliable profit at $1000 per gun base costs. Since most folks don't shoot much, then a higher percentage of quality reduction can be accepted and the few that do complain can be fixed in the service department.
It is my opinion (and mine alone) that Winchester, Remington, Savage, Colt, S&W, Kimber, Ruger, Glock, CZ and now SIG and H&K are all playing some sort of variation on what I described above.
Now the companies like Ed Brown, Baer, Wilson, Sharps, etc are playing a different game. They have established a brand loyalty and a high quality product that costs big bucks. Folks that buy say a Baer expect it to work, be tight as heck and do not expect to have problems with extractors, ejectors or mags. They expect to break in the gun and then have no problems because they bought quality. I venture to say that most of the buyers of these companies tend to buy multiple copies (like me) because they appreciate the quality they get.
So why can't say Colt just say the heck with it, we are going to make the best possible quality Python or 1911 like we used to and only sell a few of them for big bucks? Because there reputation is not developed in this market and they don't have the quantity of skilled resources to do the job right.
I have seen this problem in my industry many times. Once a company goes from doing very high quality work and drops down and goes after quantity, it is virtually impossible (so far) for the company to climb back up and be considered a quality shop.
You can't have it both ways, you either build quality or you build quantity! If you chose quality, then by god make sure every product is real quality because if the customer equates you with quantity then your company is sunk. If you build quantity, then don't ever let yourself get off the treadmill of new products because if you do, the lack of perceived value in your product will kill your company quickly.
Finally keep in mind that the number of gun collecting public is getting smaller every year and the internet has made many in the public much more knowledgeable about the past sins of a company.
Remember, nothing can destroy a companies reputation quicker then a bad product and a smart vocal end user with a digital camera and a web site to post his pictures of your bad product!
i looked at stuff nib in a shop today that would scare you...
all of it from a 'bullish' company in a country that just tried to outlaw all fireams for its citizens (hint, hint)...
absolute pos crappola junk every one ...
shouldn't even be allowed in the country ..
RG had better , more consistant quality than these people produce ...
all of it from a 'bullish' company in a country that just tried to outlaw all fireams for its citizens (hint, hint)...
absolute pos crappola junk every one ...
shouldn't even be allowed in the country ..
RG had better , more consistant quality than these people produce ...
Competition, Market Segmentation and...Choices
It's all about choices. And the internet plays a very large part in that.
There was a time when a shooter, for lack of a diagram or specific literature, had only 2 choices: 1) the local smith, whose fabled ability ranges from abysmal to excellent, and 2) the factory. At that time, it was all word of mouth and whatever was printed in the owner's manual. Guess where a LOT of repair work ended up..?
Today, a shooter can google everything about his firearms, consult THE HIGH ROAD FORUMS, choose from myriad aftermarket (or factory, if he so chooses) sources, send for the part and then have it installed by himself, or a smith (anywhere in the US), again, of his choice. Guess how much work still goes back to the original factory..?
And for those shooters who go back to the factory, or whose guns are so rare and unique they have to go back to the factory, why, that's their choice, as well.
And if you're reading this, you're probably more pro-active than the average gun-owner, and more likely the reason why Jim Keenan asked in the first place.
It's all about choices. And the internet plays a very large part in that.
There was a time when a shooter, for lack of a diagram or specific literature, had only 2 choices: 1) the local smith, whose fabled ability ranges from abysmal to excellent, and 2) the factory. At that time, it was all word of mouth and whatever was printed in the owner's manual. Guess where a LOT of repair work ended up..?
Today, a shooter can google everything about his firearms, consult THE HIGH ROAD FORUMS, choose from myriad aftermarket (or factory, if he so chooses) sources, send for the part and then have it installed by himself, or a smith (anywhere in the US), again, of his choice. Guess how much work still goes back to the original factory..?
And for those shooters who go back to the factory, or whose guns are so rare and unique they have to go back to the factory, why, that's their choice, as well.
And if you're reading this, you're probably more pro-active than the average gun-owner, and more likely the reason why Jim Keenan asked in the first place.
Factory Re: "Custom pistols"
Having purchased 5 Kimbers in 2 months, 4 of then Custom Shop" pistols, I was rather upset that 4 of them were factory defective. They all went back to the factory for "repair", a couple of them multiple times.
I commented to the factory rep/repair "expert", "This Gold Combat is nearly a $2,000.00 custom pistol; I'd think it would be near flawless and hand-inspected! Furthermore, I would think being Custom Pistols that it would be legitimate to assume higher standards."
The rep/repair person retorted in a sarcastic voice, "Hardly...it's not like you bought limited edition pistol. Now those, yes you could expect a higher standard, but Custom Shop only means it has some extra bells and whistles".
When I called Kimber's V.P., let's say he was upset with the rep's comments. He stated to me, "Well, that's wrong; you have the right to expect higher standards from a Custom pistol. Furthermore, it shouldn't even matter that it's custom or not. All pistols are either right, or they're wrong!"
He solved the attitude problem with the employee and sent me 4 new magazines for my troubles of having to pay the shipping myself, and for having been forced to take off 4 days from work to ship and to receive the pistols.
Was it just compensation, not. In total I lost approximately $1,500.00 when selling these defective pistols because I disclosed the fact of their defects or flaws to the dealer/gunsmith.
So, my thought on the factory--they created the problem! Now, should one send it back to the problem to fix the problem? Seems like hiring a drunk to guard your beer supply.
Hope this doesn't sound too bitter.
Doc2005
Having purchased 5 Kimbers in 2 months, 4 of then Custom Shop" pistols, I was rather upset that 4 of them were factory defective. They all went back to the factory for "repair", a couple of them multiple times.
I commented to the factory rep/repair "expert", "This Gold Combat is nearly a $2,000.00 custom pistol; I'd think it would be near flawless and hand-inspected! Furthermore, I would think being Custom Pistols that it would be legitimate to assume higher standards."
The rep/repair person retorted in a sarcastic voice, "Hardly...it's not like you bought limited edition pistol. Now those, yes you could expect a higher standard, but Custom Shop only means it has some extra bells and whistles".
When I called Kimber's V.P., let's say he was upset with the rep's comments. He stated to me, "Well, that's wrong; you have the right to expect higher standards from a Custom pistol. Furthermore, it shouldn't even matter that it's custom or not. All pistols are either right, or they're wrong!"
He solved the attitude problem with the employee and sent me 4 new magazines for my troubles of having to pay the shipping myself, and for having been forced to take off 4 days from work to ship and to receive the pistols.
Was it just compensation, not. In total I lost approximately $1,500.00 when selling these defective pistols because I disclosed the fact of their defects or flaws to the dealer/gunsmith.
So, my thought on the factory--they created the problem! Now, should one send it back to the problem to fix the problem? Seems like hiring a drunk to guard your beer supply.
Hope this doesn't sound too bitter.
Doc2005
The magazines might have (or might not have) covered shipping costs and incidentals, but I don't see where it covered lost time on the job. I have no idea what your income is (and don't care) but your time is worth money - to you or someone else. It also isn't clear if magazines, in and of themselves, had anything to do with your problems. If they did, they should have been uncondintionally replaced.
Then to the above you can add $1,500.00 or so. The right thing (which they'd probably never do) would be to correct or replace the guns to your full satisfaction, or take them back for a full refund. All of this on their dime of course.
I do have a question though, given what was happening why did you continue to buy this brand of pistol?
Now I'll go hug my old Colts. Any warrantees have long run out, but they work... And always have.
An item manufactured today can have poor quality or the best ever seen. The myth that a highly skilled individual can machine a part better than CNC equipment on a regular basis is just that. Factories have to make money and finding the right balance of quality and design has eluded many of them.
If you are not happy, send it back. If you hear of a great many problems with a particular brand, like "El Toro" don't buy it.
If you have a minor problem with a quality item, shipping costs may make a local fix easier. The very nice finish of the old line makers is gone because it is only done by highly skilled hand labor, on the upside we have things like Tenifer and stainless to compensate. A perfectly polished blued gun is beautiful, until you have to use it and sweat on it.
If you are not happy, send it back. If you hear of a great many problems with a particular brand, like "El Toro" don't buy it.
If you have a minor problem with a quality item, shipping costs may make a local fix easier. The very nice finish of the old line makers is gone because it is only done by highly skilled hand labor, on the upside we have things like Tenifer and stainless to compensate. A perfectly polished blued gun is beautiful, until you have to use it and sweat on it.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Myths
Jungle said:
>The myth that a highly skilled individual can machine a part better than CNC equipment on a regular basis is just that.<
*******************************
OOH! OOH! I beg to differ sir!
The problem is that there aren't many of the old-school tool and die men still around...and not many willin' to put in the time and discipline required to
learn the skills. Wanna do top work? Gotta pay your dues.
CNC machinery isn't about prodcing perfect fit/close tolerances anyway. it's about producing a thousand identical parts...within proscribed tolerances...
with as little time and skill involved as possible.
Welcome aboard, by the way! Hope ya enjoy your stay.
Jungle said:
>The myth that a highly skilled individual can machine a part better than CNC equipment on a regular basis is just that.<
*******************************
OOH! OOH! I beg to differ sir!
The problem is that there aren't many of the old-school tool and die men still around...and not many willin' to put in the time and discipline required to
learn the skills. Wanna do top work? Gotta pay your dues.
CNC machinery isn't about prodcing perfect fit/close tolerances anyway. it's about producing a thousand identical parts...within proscribed tolerances...
with as little time and skill involved as possible.
Welcome aboard, by the way! Hope ya enjoy your stay.
jungle:
Obviously you haven't had the opportunity to pop many sideplates on Smith & Wesson revolvers made between 1900 through about 1950, or perhaps disassemble and examine (not to mention shoot) a Colt National Match .45 made in 1940.
Those older classics were elegant and functional. The current crop is only functional.
Obviously you haven't had the opportunity to pop many sideplates on Smith & Wesson revolvers made between 1900 through about 1950, or perhaps disassemble and examine (not to mention shoot) a Colt National Match .45 made in 1940.
Those older classics were elegant and functional. The current crop is only functional.
With all due respect, I have seen plenty and do own my share of the old stuff. It is individually fitted and a beautiful display of skill and man hours, as is a Holland&Holland. However, when it comes to true repeatable precision there is no comparison to the current state of the art-even those Black Forest Elves at Ferlach can't hold a candle to the methods used in the aerospace and other industries. The past won't be repeated, but the future has already shown it need not be.
It is fine to honor the old arts and skills, but to say they are state of the art in precise and repeatable metalwork is folly. Newer designs may not be as pleasing from an esthetic view, but there is, as has been pointed out, a shortage of artists.
We can all enjoy the art of the past, but not many can afford the bill for elegance.
Old Fuff & Tuner, I enjoy your posts very much and have learned a great deal from you both. Thanks for taking the time to write.
It is fine to honor the old arts and skills, but to say they are state of the art in precise and repeatable metalwork is folly. Newer designs may not be as pleasing from an esthetic view, but there is, as has been pointed out, a shortage of artists.
We can all enjoy the art of the past, but not many can afford the bill for elegance.
Old Fuff & Tuner, I enjoy your posts very much and have learned a great deal from you both. Thanks for taking the time to write.
Peter M. Eick
Member
I agree with the old ways were better. My pre-war S&W's have the side plates fitted so tight that you really have to squint to even find them. My modern S&W's (610's) have very obvious sideplates and are no where near as nicely finished or fitted.
Maybe the new ways of CNC'ing things are cheaper and the steel is probably better, but some of us really like the quality of something that lasts and has character and was hand fit nearly perfectly.
I don't know why by CNC'ed stuff does not have the perfect fit and finish of the older guns. Why is that? I would have assumed it would be easier to do today.
Maybe the new ways of CNC'ing things are cheaper and the steel is probably better, but some of us really like the quality of something that lasts and has character and was hand fit nearly perfectly.
I don't know why by CNC'ed stuff does not have the perfect fit and finish of the older guns. Why is that? I would have assumed it would be easier to do today.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
jungle said:
Still gotta beg to differ. I'm an old-school toolmaker...and I've also worked with the CNC machining/turning centers. A good machinist using sensitive machinery may not be able to do it as fast, but he can and does hold to closer tolerances.
When I can gauge two slides from the same manufacturer and find as much as .007 inch difference between the locking lug locations...I have to suspect that maybe CNC is a bit too fast and efficient for repeatable precision because it encourages haphazard QC. I mean...c'mon... .007 inch to a tool and die maker is a football field. I don't find that much variation in the older pistols...not even in the WW2-era USGI guns. Most of those will hold to half that. That much variation makes precise barrel fitting a real chore sometimes.
When I can take the same extractor and try it in two slides...from the same manufacturer...and it flat won't work in one without extensive modification,
or when I measure the width of the breechface guides in two slides from the same manufacturer and find that one is right on the money at .484-.488 inch...and the other is .475 inch, and won't feed reliably with anything except mid-spec rims, if even that...I have to view the "New Age" practices with a little skepticism.
Finally...when I see a design that is nearly a century old with the kinds of functional problems that the 1911 has shown in the last 10-12 years...problems that I never used to see with pre-CNC technology...I have to wonder if new and improved really is. (And no...I'm not just talking about outsourced small parts. I'm talking about in-house major component specs.)
Precision gunmaking? I like Purdey and Westley Richards myself. Now there is skill in steel.
Beside the points that Tuner made, and they are good ones, many of the manufacturers that depend on CNC machined products have also done away with quality control inspections - especially on the floor. They presume that parts will be perfect because of the technology they are using and save even more money by not checking to be sure this is the case.
To make things even worse, they don't check the parts before they are assembled in the final product, and then don't do much in inspecting that either! If they function fire guns at all they only pick random samples.
After they are sold at retail, the new owner finds out they don't work. Then they may end up in the hands of a private gunsmith - who hopefully discovers the mis-dimensioned part that's causing problems, or it is returned to the factory's service department that hopefully does the same. Both have to either modify the part(s) to bring them into specification, or replace them all together.
Then the owner is told that "the slide was replaced," or "the cylinder was replaced." Obviously something was wrong with these parts, but the reasons are seldom explained.
When parts were machined out with a master machinist watching over things (and a floor inspector keeping track too) fewer out-of-tolerance parts ended up in the final assembly department. I don't go for the excuse that junk is O.K. because no one can afford to make things right. CNC technology may be as much part of the problem as a solution.
To make things even worse, they don't check the parts before they are assembled in the final product, and then don't do much in inspecting that either! If they function fire guns at all they only pick random samples.
After they are sold at retail, the new owner finds out they don't work. Then they may end up in the hands of a private gunsmith - who hopefully discovers the mis-dimensioned part that's causing problems, or it is returned to the factory's service department that hopefully does the same. Both have to either modify the part(s) to bring them into specification, or replace them all together.
Then the owner is told that "the slide was replaced," or "the cylinder was replaced." Obviously something was wrong with these parts, but the reasons are seldom explained.
When parts were machined out with a master machinist watching over things (and a floor inspector keeping track too) fewer out-of-tolerance parts ended up in the final assembly department. I don't go for the excuse that junk is O.K. because no one can afford to make things right. CNC technology may be as much part of the problem as a solution.
Good points. When I see you have a variation of .007 between two slides, I think defective setup or faulty tool. Blaming an error like that on a quality machine tool is like blaming a pencil for bad writing.
Master machinists aren't building production guns now and won't be in the future. They are responsible for setup, tooling and assist in QC. QC is important and done more on a statistical basis these days.
I submit that more accurate and precise firearms are built now than at any other time in history. Match scores reflect this and more so in the games requiring the highest precision.
The 1911, if the threads here are a fair indication, suffers from too many makers with too little in common with the original standards. Contrast this with a certain Austrian maker pumping out millions of copies of a somewhat bland design with almost unerring QC.
Master machinists aren't building production guns now and won't be in the future. They are responsible for setup, tooling and assist in QC. QC is important and done more on a statistical basis these days.
I submit that more accurate and precise firearms are built now than at any other time in history. Match scores reflect this and more so in the games requiring the highest precision.
The 1911, if the threads here are a fair indication, suffers from too many makers with too little in common with the original standards. Contrast this with a certain Austrian maker pumping out millions of copies of a somewhat bland design with almost unerring QC.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Accuracy
Da Quote:
>I submit that more accurate and precise firearms are built now than at any other time in history. Match scores reflect this and more so in the games requiring the highest precision.<
************************
Back in the dear, dead, early days when the Army marksmanship Unit was cranking up, the match pistols were selected from regular inventory and tested with match-grade ammo for function and accuracy. The standard was
a 3-inch group at 50 yards, average for five groups fired from a rest. If the gun shot into 3 inches, it went to the unit armorer for a little trigger work and good sights...and was used in competition. If it only managed to eke out a 3.1 inch group, it was returned to inventory for the conscripts to beat up.
If we take into account that the match-grade ball of the era was maybe a little better than present-day off-the-shelf PMC or Winchester Q lot ammo, we can appreciate just how good the guns had to be in order to meet that minimum standard. I'd venture to bet that you'd have a problem finding any modern production 1911-pattern pistol that would meet that standard. To best it, you'll have to go the hand-built route, and pay big bucks to get it.
I've handled recent production bolt-action rifles that won't do much better.
Pick up a WW2-era M-1903 Springfield with a good star-grade match barrel...bed it into the stock...and put it in the hands of a Distinguished Expert for a run at the 300 and 600-yard stages at Perry or Butner. You might be completely mystified when you see the target.
Da Quote:
>I submit that more accurate and precise firearms are built now than at any other time in history. Match scores reflect this and more so in the games requiring the highest precision.<
************************
Back in the dear, dead, early days when the Army marksmanship Unit was cranking up, the match pistols were selected from regular inventory and tested with match-grade ammo for function and accuracy. The standard was
a 3-inch group at 50 yards, average for five groups fired from a rest. If the gun shot into 3 inches, it went to the unit armorer for a little trigger work and good sights...and was used in competition. If it only managed to eke out a 3.1 inch group, it was returned to inventory for the conscripts to beat up.
If we take into account that the match-grade ball of the era was maybe a little better than present-day off-the-shelf PMC or Winchester Q lot ammo, we can appreciate just how good the guns had to be in order to meet that minimum standard. I'd venture to bet that you'd have a problem finding any modern production 1911-pattern pistol that would meet that standard. To best it, you'll have to go the hand-built route, and pay big bucks to get it.
I've handled recent production bolt-action rifles that won't do much better.
Pick up a WW2-era M-1903 Springfield with a good star-grade match barrel...bed it into the stock...and put it in the hands of a Distinguished Expert for a run at the 300 and 600-yard stages at Perry or Butner. You might be completely mystified when you see the target.
Show me a shooting match champion that's setting these high scores, and I will show you someone with a highly customized, individually assembled firearm that has received unlimited hand work and fitting. These are not firearms that are turned out in mass quantities using CNC machines and polymer frames. Or if they are, they have been extensively modified and tuned after originally being built. As a class of firearms, the highest-grade target guns tend to support my and Tuner's contentions.
Outside of their custom shops, today's manufacturers are driven by production economies not making the highest quality product, nor having the best possible accuracy. It is noteworthy that consumer complaints are increasing, and are more focused on currently produced arms, rather then older ones. With the experience gained by an over 50-years overview within the firearms industry I can say that complaints about quality are much higher now then any other time I can remember.
The average M-16 will out shoot the average '03 on any given day. This may be one of the reasons not too many '03s are seen in service rifle competition. We won't even consider the average issue Sniper rifle, which is in every way superior to anything constructed on an '03 action.
Firearms development didn't reach it's zenith in 1903 or 1911 and ammunition has come a long way also.
I'm not talking about the hand built service weapons, but selected rack grade.
The average SIG 226 will group as well or better than any production grade 1911.
Cherry picking the best of the old breed is meaningless, look at the service rifle scores.
Firearms development didn't reach it's zenith in 1903 or 1911 and ammunition has come a long way also.
I'm not talking about the hand built service weapons, but selected rack grade.
The average SIG 226 will group as well or better than any production grade 1911.
Cherry picking the best of the old breed is meaningless, look at the service rifle scores.
At 600 to 1000 yards with a crosswind...
But maybe some M-1's and M1A1's
But of course we'll ignore the M-14 and various Remington/Winchester bolt guns.
True, but no one said it did (or didn't) as the case may be.
Well you should really pick the P-220, but anyway I would disput that.
You were the one that brought up cherry picking, but anyway service rifle scores have been shot with M-1, M1-A1, M-14, and M-16 (AR-15) rifles. One thing they have in common is that they're hand tuned, at least those that are used by winners are. You have of course , heard the term "Match Grade?"
Actually Tuner brought up the cherry picking as a method of selecting match weapons in the early days of the AMU.
M-16s are the winners now at 600 or 1000. M1s and M14s are not in the running.
I'm not disputing your expertise, but isn't it correct that more accurate weapons and ammunition are made today than in any previous time?
My contention is that the common denominator service weapons are more accurate now than they ever were, by design, manufacture, and ammunition.
Do you disagree with this?
M-16s are the winners now at 600 or 1000. M1s and M14s are not in the running.
I'm not disputing your expertise, but isn't it correct that more accurate weapons and ammunition are made today than in any previous time?
My contention is that the common denominator service weapons are more accurate now than they ever were, by design, manufacture, and ammunition.
Do you disagree with this?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Cherry Pickin'
>My contention is that the common denominator service weapons are more accurate now than they ever were, by design, manufacture, and ammunition.
Do you disagree with this?<
*************************
Ammunition? No question. Service-grade weapons? Debateable. Might be interestin' to pit a randomly picked USP or Glock against two of my issue, but near-new condition pistols...A '19 Colt and a '45 Rand...for accuracy testing only, with say...Federal Match? Since I've only got the one '03 Springfield with the starry barrel, I'd have to go with that one...but it's a dandy. Looks rough, but has put more than a few AR-15s back in the boxes at our club's monthly 200-yard shoot. 'Course, that was in better days before my eyes started playin' tricks on me.
Lack of decent match match ammo makes handloads a necessity, but all charges will be thrown instead of scaled.
What say you, jungle? Feel up to a trip to North Cackalackey this spring/summer? Turbocoffee flows freely, as does good barbecue and
BS...
For true precision...give me a skilled man with a file and a stone any day over mass-production on ANY class of machinery
>My contention is that the common denominator service weapons are more accurate now than they ever were, by design, manufacture, and ammunition.
Do you disagree with this?<
*************************
Ammunition? No question. Service-grade weapons? Debateable. Might be interestin' to pit a randomly picked USP or Glock against two of my issue, but near-new condition pistols...A '19 Colt and a '45 Rand...for accuracy testing only, with say...Federal Match? Since I've only got the one '03 Springfield with the starry barrel, I'd have to go with that one...but it's a dandy. Looks rough, but has put more than a few AR-15s back in the boxes at our club's monthly 200-yard shoot. 'Course, that was in better days before my eyes started playin' tricks on me.
Lack of decent match match ammo makes handloads a necessity, but all charges will be thrown instead of scaled.
What say you, jungle? Feel up to a trip to North Cackalackey this spring/summer? Turbocoffee flows freely, as does good barbecue and
BS...
For true precision...give me a skilled man with a file and a stone any day over mass-production on ANY class of machinery
- Status
