What is wrong with the factory?

[Old Fuff]

During World War Two some modifications were made to certain small arms to speed up production. The two-grove Springfields barrels were mentioned, and the 03-A3 Springfield rifles also had stamped press-metal triger guards and floorplates as well as some sight components. .45 1911A1 pistols had the wide flanks removed from the hammers, triggers were made out of two pieces, staked or brazed together, and parts that were formally checkered were serrated.

However there was an important difference between those firearms and a lot of the commercial stuff we see now.

Those guns worked! They functioned, and the got the job done. They were also inspected, and there was some accountability.

If that was the case today, folks like Tuner would be bored too death.

Obviously he isn't.

CNC programed machines may be able to turn out parts held to closer tolerances. Same with MIM technology.

But it doesn't matter if the guns, with all of their wonderful parts, DON'T WORK!

 

[1911Tuner]

Bored

Fuff said:

>If that was the case today, folks like Tuner would be bored to death.<
********************

Testify! If they were still buildin'em like they did in the 50s, this keyboard would rot to the ground before I saw a post like:

"My new Brand X Double Throwdown Custom Whizbang jams!"

Or:

"My grip safety/thumb safety/mag catch/slidestop/link/hammer/sear/disconnect/barrel/bushing...BROKE! Why???"

On the upside, I've met a lotta good folks and made some solid friends by invitin'em here so I could fix their Double Throwdown Custom Whizbangs for'em...

 

[jungle]

Just wondering if they are bringing a lot of Berettas, Glocks, H&Ks, SIGs or other such instruments of the devil. I hear they break once in a while too.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Just wondering if they are bringing a lot of Berettas, Glocks, H&Ks, SIGs or other such instruments of the devil. I hear they break once in a while too.

Nah. I'm a specialist, though I have been known to tweak a Smith & Wesson wheelgun on occasion.

Oh yeah...AR-15s/M-16s too. Came with the 2112 MOS...but I don't hold'em in very high regard.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Okay...No more dissent on the New vs Old? Good! Back on topic.

Jungle, if you really believe that New Technique is the path to true enligthtenment, refer back to page 1 of this thread, post #8. This wasn't an isolated incident, nor was it the first time that I've run into things like this and other defective or out-of-spec issues with recent production guns from different manufacturers. And before the point is raised abot some of the old guns probably having the same problems, I'm sure that they did. The point is that, CNC technology is just as fallible as the old practices were, and is not a guarantee of perfection.
If anything, it's more likely to produce an "uh-oh" BECAUSE it eliminates most of the human interaction. CNC machines don't have eyes.

Now then, the topic was/is:

Why not send defective guns back to the manufacturers?

 

[jungle]

The Old ways won't be making a comeback, we are going to have to live with CNC as the standard. Can it be improved? Yes, and in combination with adequate QC it is the only way people are going to be able to afford a 1911.
The other designs which you have chosen to ignore don't display the types of defects you see from the disorganized mob of 1911 producers. Can it be done right? Yes, look at recent SIG, and S&W 1911s and Caspian parts.

Clutching a few old relics and proclaiming it will "never be better than these" is the sort of statement that history delights in destroying.

 

[1911Tuner]

Old Ways

The old ways are alive and well in small shops and *ahem* old Jarhead armorers' benches everywhere...and I'm not talkin' about full-blown, 4,000-dollar wunderguns. Just plain, old attention to detail and seein' that things are set right...like they should have been before the manufacturer boxed it up and sent it on its way.

Now, one more time...

Topic jungle...Topic. Start a thread on CNC as it affects the firearms industry
and we'll continue this one 'til we pass out. This one WAS a question as to why many of us don't send defective guns back to the factory for correction and repair. <---(That's what we call a cluebat)

For the record, I like CNC machining and turning centers very much...but I'm aware of what they were intended for, and what their weaknesses are.

 

[jungle]

Factories are producers of the guns most of us buy, and in terms of numbers the small shops aren't a player.
The reason people aren't happy about factories repairing their guns has been pointed out, they aren't building them right in the first place and as you have pointed out, this is a much larger problem with 1911s than with many other designs. Sorry you got upset.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Not upset, jungle. Just tryin' to keep the thread on topic, mah fren. No harm, no foul.

 

[Old Fuff]

One thing that may not have been mentioned is that folks sometimes send guns back the the manufacturer for refinishing, or a change of finish. Or perhaps a trigger-pull job or a tune up. Both Smith & Wesson and Colt, judging from some posts I've read as well as personal experience, do exceptionally well at this because they have special tools and fixtures as well as buffing wheels made especially for their products. In addition they're most experienced people are usually assigned to the custom gun department. Sometimes they can do things that no one else can.

 

[19112XS]

The factory doesn’t return the firearm the same day with better than original components replacing the defective ones. The factory doesn’t look over the firearm to check for any and all areas of possible future problems. The factory doesn’t provide information and education on the intricacies involved with proper operation. Lastly the factory doesn’t put a dog under one hand, a cup of coffee in the other, and shake hands with a friendly smile when the repair is complete.

 

[Old Fuff]

Now who the heck would do all that???

 

[mister2]

Yet more choices

This one WAS a question as to why many of us don't send defective guns back to the factory for correction and repair. <---(That's what we call a cluebat)

Roger that, Tuner!

Given everything posted above, here's my read:

CNC is great, but it all comes down to humans who program and humans who do QA. If that's done right, then CNC is all good. If....

Many (not all) guns are forged in one place, machined in another, perhaps finally assembled at a third location.

And then marketed by a party not any of the aforementioned.

If I bought a Supercalifragilistic pistol with a defect, should I send it to the forger, the machinist, the assembler or the marketing company? Or the dealer (who BTW may be an "authorized" service agent)?

Maybe I should do my homework and do an internet search....Hmmmm. I can tell you, sending my defective pistol to a CNC shop floor that produced the defective part in the first place would NOT be my first option. Wouldn't even by my last, either.

Remember the "It's the economy, stupid!" line? In this case, it's the humans, <fill in in your fav explet.>

So, (shrugging shoulders)...TuunneEEERRRR !!!

Try to have a nice day!

 

[1911Tuner]

Whoooooo

Now who the heck would do all that???

************

Mister2...Good points. When everything is made in different locations, things tend to get a little haywire.

 

[45auto]

I tried the "Colt warranty" once and it didn't work well for me. Spent the shipping costs and nothing was "done". Aside from the services Old Fuff mentioned, it may be that a company like Colt is just not "equipped" on the "finer points" of 1911ism. Meaning replace what is out of spec, and be done with it.

On the other hand, from what I READ , companies like S&W and in particular, Springfield which have "performance" shops or true custom gunsmiths, do very well for their customers. They can do more than a Colt that just assemblies 1911's.

So, if I owned a Springfield, for example, I would send it back. Colt...no!

Same for other types of guns also. Browning shotgun...no way I'd send it back. Perazzi...yes indeedy!!

 

[Old Fuff]

As a rule, and I suppose there are some exceptions, factory repair departments and/or custom shops will only work on certain guns that they manufactured. So for example, you sent a Springer to Colt for work they'd likely return it. Colt does (or did do) some custom work, but the 'smiths weren't the same ones that did warrantee repairs. I was well satisfied with a Detective Special that had the action tuned and was reblued, but this was a while back.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Looks like if the little guys do quality control and customer service just a little,
they can eventually out do Colt, S&W and the other bug guys.

 

[Terrierman]

I can tell you why I don't care much for factory repair service. My Remington 11-87 developed the disconcerting habit of dropping whatever was in the tube into the action on about every 20th firing. Remington had two chances to fix it before it became a Super 90. Time and hassle and a non-functioning hunting gun all wore me down into giving up and just trading it. My Ruger 10-22 Magnum failed to fire chambered rounds two to three times per ten rounds. Ruger had two chances to fix it. To Ruger's credit when they failed twice they let me have any .22 Magnum in their catalog and the 10-22 Magnum became a 77/22 All Weather that has been 100%.