What laws can be justified?

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Kindrox

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This quote is from the "Are we fighting the wrong battles?" thread:

Some of us have done quite a lot of "free thinking" to get to the point where we realize that restrictive firearm laws are INEFFECTIVE - and only serve to restrict those that abide by the laws.

This line of thinking is genereally boils down to gun laws don't enforce themselves, so why have them. But then most laws don't enforce themselves. Is there any reason why I can't substitute a word from the quote above and reach the same conclusion:

we realize that restrictive fruad laws are INEFFECTIVE - and only serve to restrict those that abide by the laws.

we realize that restrictive importation laws are INEFFECTIVE - and only serve to restrict those that abide by the laws.

we realize that restrictive tax laws are INEFFECTIVE - and only serve to restrict those that abide by the laws.

At some point aren’t laws a society’s statement on standards of behavior and acceptable acts? Laws about reporting all your taxable income do not enforce themselves, and at some level are unenforceable, does that mean we should get rid of them?
 
Bottom line is that gun laws do not protect the innocent, and do not punish those who victimize others. Gun laws create victimless crimes. That is why they cannot be justified.
 
Shouldn't we worry about the crime (which has been illegal since Day One under the laws of God if not of man) rather than the instrument with which the crime was committed?

I mean, after a while, it gets sorta dopey if not flat-out disingenuous.

Ya gotta wonder how these clowns keep a straight face sometimes.

knife_crime_amnesty_poster.jpg
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Some of us have done quite a lot of "free thinking" to get to the point where we realize that restrictive firearm laws are INEFFECTIVE - and only serve to restrict those that abide by the laws.


...gun laws don't enforce themselves, so why have them?

What laws can be justified?


It's a good question worth further discussion.

As the author of the above quote, I'll answer by saying gun restrictions are generally only enforced AFTER a crime is committed. If the penalties for the the original crime are fair and adequate, there should be no need for "enhancing" the sentence by tacking on a firearm infraction.

The problem to be addressed is violent criminals committing violent crimes. Carrying a tool is NOT a violent act, and should not be a crime. Committing violence against an innocent person is a crime, as it should be. Laws that severely restrict law-abiding citizens rights in order to "fix" a problem that doesn't exist can not be justified.

In your example, restrictive laws against fraud can be justified because committing fraud directly victimizes innocent people.

In MY universe...

If you victimize other people, you should be segregated from the rest of us.

If you can be trusted to to be amongst us, you should have the same rights as the rest of us.

If you commit a predatory crime AGAIN, you should be segregated for an even longer period of time.

If you persist in committing predatory crimes after your second chance...you don't get a third chance.


Laws about reporting all your taxable income do not enforce themselves, and at some level are unenforceable, does that mean we should get rid of them?


That's an easy one...

Yes.
 
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Fraud is designed to hurt someone in a tangible way. The law against fraud protects only those who have already been victimized by punishing after the fact.
Many gun laws are presupposing evil intent, and limiting access/use of a common item on the supposition that the mere posession of this tool will cause crime.
 
In some jurisdictions at least, it is illegal to carry burglary tools.

See this story for example. Now in this example the guy already had outstanding warrents so was going to get picked up, but imagine he didn't have warrents. The police would have nothing to pick the dude up with, and he would be free to go about his "business".

I think a law proscribing the carry of burglary tools could be derided as a victimless crime, but it gives the police a real tool to pick up bad people should they happen to catch them prior to using the tools.

If a violent felon is found in possesion of a gun, arrested and put in jail, I would say a case could be made that the state prevented the commision of a crime.

In the story below I think it is a good thing that this guy can serve extra time for having a weapon on him. Personally I think this guy did have evil intent.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/06/springfield_police_arrest_man_10.html

SPRINGFIELD - Two alert police officers on patrol early Friday near Van Horn Park are being credited with preventing a burglary before it happened, said Springfield Police Sgt. John M. Delaney, aide to Commissioner William J. Fitchet.

Officers David Ramos and Scott Stelzer were patrolling in the vicinity of Connecticut and Ontario streets in Liberty Heights at about 4:30 a.m. when they spotted a known suspect, identified as 23-year-old Felix Marrero, no known address, "walking in the shadows," Delaney said.

Both officers knew he was not from the neighborhood and stopped to question him. He was arrested when they found he was wanted for several outstanding warrants, including nighttime breaking and entering, possession of burglary tools and destruction of property.

He was found carrying a ski mask, gloves and a knife when he was placed in custody, Delaney said. He was also charged with possession of a weapon while having an active warrant.

The area has had several break-ins lately, he said.
 
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See this story for example. Now in this example the guy already had outstanding warrents so was going to get picked up, but imagine he didn't have warrents. The police would have nothing to pick the dude up with, and he would be free to go about his "business".

I think a law proscribing the carry of burglary tools could be derided as a victimless crime, but it gives the police a real tool to pick up bad people should they happen to catch them prior to using the tools.

Prior to using the tools for nefarious activity, they have done nothing wrong. Precrime is a scary concept, and one that has already been implemented via these possession laws.
 
@Colonel

Looking at those pictures I see a few brand new garden tools and a kitchen cleaver. It is really scary looking at England and how close they are to 1984.

I wonder how long it is before things like steak are banned outside of restraunts so that they do not need to have a knife. You must go to the barber for a shave. A few years ago I would laugh at these concepts but now I am scared they will (and are) becoming a reality.

I fear pens will become illegal once they see these - http://www.bladehq.com/item--Stainless-Steel-Benchmade--2836

Glad I live in VA and not London.
 
Justifiable gun laws are essentially those which are spawned of common sense. For example, laws enacted to keep firearms out of the hands of those who should not have them are justified (i.e mental incompetents, criminals, etc.). Anything else probably falls under the heading of "personal responsibility" which, in our society run amok, is sadly lacking.
 
Justifiable gun laws are essentially those which are spawned of common sense. For example, laws enacted to keep firearms out of the hands of those who should not have them are justified (i.e mental incompetents, criminals, etc.).

Well, real common sense would dictate that people too dangerous to have a gun in their hands are too dangerous to be out in public in the first place so a gun law prohibiting them shouldn't be necessary but yeah, I agree with you. Personal responsibility is something that doesn't seem to exist anymore.
 
Code:
if (con(lex) == TRUE)
{
    if (ben > cos)
	jus = TRUE;
    else
        jus = FALSE;
}
Does the law violate the Constitution? If yes, it is unjustified.
If it is Constitutional, do the costs exceed the benefits? If yes, it is unjustified.
If it is Constitutional and the benefits clearly exceed the costs, it can be justified.

Most prohibition or censorship laws (mala prohibita of alcohol, marijuana, "Lady Chatterley's Lover", guns, Popeye cartoons, boy scout knives, etc.) fail one or both tests.

My home county banned alcohol til 1968. I recall rampant bootlegging of beer and questionable quality booze (colored moonshine in bottles with broken seals, etc.) and frequent reports of fights, knifings or shootings at bootleg joints with colorful names like The Sugar Shack and The Bloody Bucket. Kinda fueled my cynicism about the talk about gun control in the 1960s: I read Mad Ave Adman Carl Bakal's book "No Right to Bear Arms" as just a prohibitionist tract replacing demon rum with mail order gun.

Prohibition of alcohol or even "shoulder things that go up" might pass the Constitutional law test, but I doubt if they pass the cost-v-benefit economics test. (Banning "shoulder things that go up" just does not pass the common sense test but that's another issue.)

As far as mala in se acts go, everything that can be done wrong with a gun is already against the law--murder, armed robbery, assault, reckless endangerment. Enforcing mala prohibita laws aimed at guns or gun owners just diverts law enforcement time and money from enforcing mala in se laws. There are more gun owners than there are gun criminals.

The NAS 2004 report in the section on gun buybacks indicates that there are 6,500 handgun murders out of 65 million handguns, or one of 10,000. Therefore, a gun buyback would have to randomly select 10,000 handguns to get one murder weapon. At the typical buyback program, most people turning in guns and most guns turned in do not match the handgun murder profile (generally buyback guns are old or inoperable guns turned in by people who inherited them and did not have any use for them; a widow who inherited a 1897 Winchester shotgun from her duck hunter husband (but no shells) is not your typical murderer). As I look at it, buyback programs are hard to justify in an economic sense. At a cost of $100 per gun ($50 to the owner and $50 to handle and dispose of the guns) the price of 10,000 guns, one million dollars, would have more measurable benefit if invested in hiring more police or providing better equipment or training for existing police: it would be more likely either to prevent crimes or to catch criminals.
 
The police would have nothing to pick the dude up with, and he would be free to go about his "business".

What are "burglary tools"? I probably have a bunch in my garage, despite my squeaky-clean criminal record. More than likely, so do you.

Should you have to know the details of some complex, arbitrary law, in order to prevent your being convicted of a crime, when you're NOT a criminal? If you don't know the law (try memorizing the law -- attorneys don't know the whole law, either, and they go to school and get paid to know it as well as they can) should you be convicted of a crime because you tossed some tools in your car and drove to a friend's house to help with a project?

Read California's gun laws sometime, and tell me if you understand them well enough to be "in compliance".

Google:

malum prohibitum
malum in se
non-aggression principle
 
It's pretty complicated...and is worse for all the conditioning and entraining everyone is subject to.

Most of the Laws are about conditions which will benifit those groups who's lobbiests succeeded in making the deals with ledgislators...or to benifit bureaucracies and to permit them to grow.

Laws against 'fraud' have accomplished nothing in regard to fraud from the 'top' down, or fraud among special interest groups who own or rent politicians and profit for their position of being protected and deflected...even if some poor dope goes to the slammer for writing a 'bad' check at the grocery store.


It's all very messy.

And the 'reasoning' for a great many 'laws', when examined closely, turns out to be entirely irrational and phony or merely fake and calculated, and or merely 'emotional'...or by degrees, all four.

'Follow the Money' remains good advice.
 
Justifiable gun laws are essentially those which are spawned of common sense.


If you have been paying attention - and many of us here have been - you know that not a single firearm restriction has EVER been enacted that did not have the description "common sense" tacked on in front of it.


There are several problems with "common sense".

First of all - as "common" as it supposedly is - we can't seem to agree what it is.

Secondly, "common sense" is used as an adjective to describe something we all "know" is true. Except so much of what we think we know ain't what it seems.

Thirdly, the REAL truth may in fact be counter-intuitive (i.e., the opposite of "common sense").

Here is an example:

It is considered by many to be a matter of common sense that More Guns = More Criminal Violence - when in truth - the opposite may be true.
 
Any law will do one of three things; More good than harm; More harm than good; Its a wash, it doesn't do much good but no real harm either.

The problem with most restrictive gun control laws ( but not all, which is debatable ) is that they do far more harm then good.

Also, how well a criminal law works depends on how much deterrence it has on the actions of potential or real criminals. The more readily someone gets punished for breaking a law the more it deters malos ( spanish for bad people ) from being malo.

A great problem with restrictive gun laws is that those who are willing to commit crimes far more serious then mere illegal gun possession are rarely deterred from getting and using guns while law abiding people who could benefit from having a gun from DS are deterred.
 
people too dangerous to have a gun in their hands are too dangerous to be out in public in the first place

thats not true. Would you give a firearm to the mentally handicapped? No, but they are not too dangerous to be in public, a prior felon who has served his time has every right to be in public according to the law, but I wouldn't want him to own firearm.
 
people too dangerous to have a gun in their hands are too dangerous to be out in public in the first place

I agree with the underlying sentiment, in general, but in practice I don't think society can really afford to lock all felons up for the rest of their lives.

That being reality, instead we give them a "probation" of sorts - Show you can follow the rules and you can stay out of jail. I would generally support some classes of felons being able to get their gun rights back if they stay out of trouble for a certain period of time.

But no I don't want fresh felons going down to the local hardware store and legally buying a gun. Even if they can go out and steal one and even if they can buy one on the black market.

I'd rather they get picked up for the crime of a felon in possession of a firearm than picked up for my murder with a firearm.

If courts respected second amendment rights like they respect the rest, I doubt there would be many people against a few basic gun laws. Since they don't, I do understand where some folks are coming from, even if I don't fully agree.
 
You can't compare drug and gun prohibition laws with laws concerning fraud, assault, etc. because when you carry a gun or do drugs you're not initiating force against anyone. That is key. They are "victimless crimes". As long as nobody has initiated force, no wrong has occurred.
 
I have to point out, by that definition, conspiracy to commit a crime is "victimless" and yet is very much illegal. Should that law be gutted too?
 
"Conspiracy to commit a crime"

Conspiracy to commit a crime is not always victimless. Sometimes the criminals do succeed after conspiring.

And, uh, which crime was this again?

Clearly the line is drawn at true intent, not just general intent.

Everyday I say that I'm gonna do things that I don't do or is just BS talk -- "I'm gonna smash that, yo!!" "That guy stole my boat!!" "What I wouldn't like to do with three hookers and a motel, right now... MMm..."

If I actually try to smash that without consent, get my fictitious boat back without consent, or use the owner of the motel's property without consent ('cause the hookers always give it up)... yea, I broke the law.

Talking about it & being about it are usually pretty easy to distinguish.

... AND IF YOU CAN'T ... Then you can't prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that anybody was conspiring to break the law!!!
 
I've read tie whole thread (so far) and I have a question.
Can someone describe a law that DOES "enforce itself"??:confused:

As for the old hack "If they can't be trusted with a gun, they shouldn't be let out". All well and fine. Who's going to decide if they can be trusted or not?
(Whoever is currently sitting on parole boards are sure doing a good job. There just isn't any recidivism.:barf: )
And we will need to change our whole concept of jurisprudence. No more specified amount of sentence for a given crime. Basically all crimes are life sentences unless "someone" decides you are to be trusted. And what should happen to whoever turns a criminal loose that re-offends? Should they be locked up with the re-offender? I know if that were the case, I just wouldn't turn anybody loose were I the decision maker.:p
 
There was no concept of an illegal thing in America before the progressive era.
Crime is an action, not a thing. Simply owning a tool that has the potential for criminal misuse is not the same thing as actually misusing that object to commit a crime.
Guns are tools and as such are no better or no worse than the man who uses them.

In America a person is supposedly considered innocent of committing a criminal act until proven guilty. Gun laws presuppose guilt because of what you might do. If for example, you are found to have a machine gun stored in your home, the burden of proof will be on you to prove that it is properly registered and licensed. If not, you will be treated as the worst potential scenario, like you are John Dillinger, and you will hauled off to jail for a decade even though you never robbed a bank or shot anyone.

Preventative laws are evil because they are collectivist in nature and treat everyone as members of a group (civilian society) and the individual is considered no better than the least member of that group. Therefore, if the least among us is not competent to own a gun, Then NOBODY can have a gun.

If you really think about it this formula is exactly how racist Jim Crow laws worked in the South.
Because some people in the Negro race did not behave themselves, then NOBODY of that race could enter certain businesses, use public accommodations or even be outside their part of town after dark because of what they might do, even though the vast majority behaved themselves properly.
 
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Laws are a necessary and important component of a civilized society. Having said that, there's no doubt that there are many needless laws on the books that are utter nonsense. There are probably more idiotic gun laws and regulations than any other area of legislation.
 
Because some people in the Negro race did not behave themselves...


Seriously? You believe that behavior is the basis for racist laws? It had nothing to do with white folks who didn't want to associate with a race of people they had formerly enslaved and considered inferior?

You make a point, however, about "collectivist" gun laws that assume if anyone is untrustworthy - everyone is untrustworthy.

Many restrictive gun laws originated as a means of disarming black folks after the Civil War. Was that the "progressive era" you referred to?
 
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