What Revolver Initially Equipped FBI Agents?

[Timthinker]

When the FBI was authorized to carry firearms in the 1930s, what revolver was chosen as their standard sidearm? I know the .38 Special was carried by many agents, but I am uncertain which make and model was the first selected to equip their agents. Yes, J. Edgar Hoover, then the head of the FBI, received one of the first S & W Model 27s back then, but I do not believe this was the official sidearm. Thanks for the information.


Timthinker

 

[ozarkman]

Actually, the FBI is getting ready to celebrate it's 100 year mark having originated from a force of Special Agents created in 1908 by Attorney General Charles Bonaparte during the Presidency of Theodore Roosevelt. So with that in mind, I think it's probably logical to conclude that the standard issue sidearm would be similar to the revolver issued for the military at that time. Colt was in preparation to begin production of the 45 model 1909 the predecessor to the 1911. Could it have been the Schofield revolver?? Just a guess on my part. The time frame that you are referring to however, I believe that the official sidearm was either the Colt police positive or S&W model 10 M&P.

 

[isp2605]

The FBI, when first created, was not authorized to carry firearms. It wasn't until the 1930s (forget the exact year) when the FBI was finally given the legal authorization to arm its agents. The first issued were Colts in .38 Spl, can't remember the model, fixed sight, 4". In the 1960s the issued revolver was changed to the S&W Model 10 with 4" pencil barrel.
Hoover wasn't fond of autos. He considered autos to be gangsters' guns therefore autos were not authorized. However, each field office had several Colt Government Models in .38 Super that could be checked out for SAs working undercover. Even after Hoover autos weren't approved. I remember when 1 agent was caught carrying a S&W Model 59 soon after they came out. That cost him big time. He was certain he was going to be transferred to another field office. Probably the only thing that saved him was the ASAC who was his supervisor and who had been a long time very good friend went to bat for the guy with HQ. Knew another agent who got in a shootout with a Top 10 and the agent ended up hitting the Top 10, don't recall if the guy later died. The agent was armed with a BHP. That was when Hoover was still alive. The SA got an award for capturing the Top 10 and censured for carrying an unauthorized firearm.

 

[Old Fuff]

During the gangster era of the 1930's agents carried a number of handguns, including automatics such as the Colt .38 Super. However the issue sidearm was a Colt Official Police .38 Special with a 4 inch barrel. Later a similar S&W M&P .38 Special with a 4" pencil barrel was added to the list. By the 1960's Colt was out of the picture because they couldn't win competive bids. Interestingly blue finish was required on all.

 

[Will5A1]

FWIW - J. Edgar was presented with Registered Magnum 1, and when it surfaces there will be a very interesting bidding war to buy it. S&W didn't start the Model Number System until 1957. I'll never be able to afford it but its fun to dream about finding it in some out of the pay pawn shop for a song.

 

[dfariswheel]

The first official FBI revolver was the Colt Official Police.

Some FBI agents were "more equal" than others and they often carried the Colt 1911 .45 auto.
Fairly quickly, some agents began carrying the Colt Detective Special, as did Hoover.

The famed FBI "Cowboys" sometimes known as "The Hat Squad" carried the 1911 and large caliber revolvers.
After some disastrous FBI shoot-outs in which the FBI came in a distant second, Hoover realized that while what he wanted was young, college educated agents, most of them were shocked to realize they were really policemen and might be involved in gun fights.
Many of these early agents had joined the FBI as sort of an adventure they'd do until the depression eased up and they could get on with their real careers.
The idea of shooting it out with Thompson and BAR armed outlaws took the glitter off the job.

Hoover was forced to go out to Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona and recruit some Western lawmen who were not unfamiliar with gun play, and were not shy about shooting people.
These men were the ones responsible for the FBI most famed gun battles with the 1930's "Motor Bandits" like Dillinger and and the Barker gang.

Embarrassed at having selected college boys who failed in the rough stuff, Hoover made sure the "Cowboys" got no public mention, but they got plenty of "trigger time" on the streets.

In the 1960's through the 1980's, the "in" people at the FBI carried the Colt Python with a 2 1/2 inch barrel.
Word has it that a very senior agent in Washington actually cried when they made him give up his beloved Python for a automatic.

 

[isp2605]

For Old Fluff - there were several SAs who carried nickled guns. Worked with 2 who were on the Accounting Squad who carried nickle Dick Specials that were consecutive serial numbers. They each bought them at different times and just a coincidence they got consecutive numbers.
Only saw 1 agent ever carry a Python. The personally owned gun of choice that an agent looked for was the S&W 2.5" Model 19. This one has a few miles on it. Great trigger. Smiths at Quantico did a great job on it.

 

[Old Fuff]

there were several SAs who carried nickled guns.

True, but I think this was after the Hoover era. Otherwise they could have had their heads on a block if something was said.

 

[TT]

What make of grip adaptor is that?

 

[isp2605]

True, but I think this was after the Hoover era. Otherwise they could have had their heads on a block if something was said.

Nope, this was during Hoover. One retired a couple of years after Hoover died. The BU knew they what they were carrying. All authorized firearms had to be inspected and approved. When SAs went back to Q for in-service they had to take all authorized firearms with them so the smiths at Q could go over them. Wasn't going to slide anything past them. In addition when the inspectors hit the field office one thing they checked was every SAs authorized gun and scores.

What make of grip adaptor is that?

Pachmayr.

 

[Timthinker]

Guys, thanks for the wealth of material. I did not know if Colt or S&W provided the first revolvers for the FBI, although I knew Smiths were carried at a later time. The firsthand stories about FBI agents are "icing on the cake". Thanks again.

Will, the revolver to which your refer is a Model 27 S&W with a 3 1/2 inch barrel. Only God knows what that gun will bring at auction.


Timthinker

 

[Will5A1]

Tim - S&W didn't start using the model numbering system until 1957. The first production .357's are "Registered Magnums", or "RM" in collector speak, essentially custom guns made, and "Registered" to a specific customer by the factory, each one had a certificate with the customers name on it. These were exceptionally expensive to produce, so, by 1937, IIRC, S&W started selling the non-registered mangums, and did so until WWII when production was dedicated to wartime needs.

In 1957 the .357 Magnum became the Model 27, the Highway Patrolman the Model 28, the Chief's Special the Model 36, etc. Over the past 10 years a number of historically significant RM's have sold at auction, but that #1 would probably attract interest from collectors, and institutions, with very deep pockets.

There was an RM box on ebay last week with a buy it now price of $1100 - it sold. An empty box.

 

[ShunZu]

Isn't the heavy barrel Mod 13 fixed sight in there somewhere? Or did I just miss it?

 

[Old Fuff]

No, the last revolver adopted by the FBI before they went to automatic pistols was the S&W model 13 with a 3" barrel. But the original question was:

What Revolver Initially Equipped FBI Agents?

 

[TT]

Isp2605: Pachmayr.

Thanks. I wish I could find a source for the Pachmayrs- the Tylers with their finger groove don’t work for me.

 

[isp2605]

I wish I could find a source for the Pachmayrs

Wish I could help you on those. I got that one almost 35 yrs ago. They're very hard plastic and work very well.
You might also look for a S&W make adapter. They were made about the same as the Pachmayrs, hard plastic with no finger groove. Haven't seen those around for a while either.

 

[Timthinker]

Will, while you are correct about the model numbering system for S&W revolvers, Hoover's gun has been refered to as a Model 27 by different writers. The reason is that particular design eventually became known as the Model 27, as you stated in your last post. So, gun writers use that description even though it was not officially adopted until long after Hoover received his revolver. If I remember correctly, Hoover received his S&W in 1935. As an interesting footnote, that gun was not listed among his possessions when he died in 1972. I would like to read a thread about those early registered magnums someday. No doubt, you could provide a lot a interesting information about some of those revolvers.


Timthinker