What Was the Standard Issue FBI Revolver in the 50's?

[rainbowbob]

My Dad was a Special Agent with the FBI for 30 years (1942-1972). As far as I know, he only had one duty gun in all that time - but I could be wrong about that. I only saw it a few times, and he never schooled his sons on firearms, unfortunately.

I know that it was a .38 revolver - and I think it was an S&W. It wasn't a snubbie - maybe 3" or 4'.

Does anyone know what the standard issue would have been in that time frame?

 

[JNewell]

I thought they carried .357s, which would be a (pre-) Model 13. If they carried .38 Specials at that time, it was probably a (pre-) Model 10. Both are K-frame, fixed sights, blued carbon steel. And both are immortal examples of classic S&W quality and design.

 

[Old Fuff]

During the 1950's it was either a Colt Official Police or Smith & Wesson Military & Police (pre Model 10) in .38 Special. Blued finish, 4 inch pencil barrels.

However within limitations Special Agents could carry other Colt or S&W .38 Special. blued revolvers that they personally purchased. The pre-model 15 K-38 Combat Masterpiece (blue/4") was especially popular, as the FBI had a hand in its development.

.357 Magnum revolvers were available in larger offices, but only issued for specific reasons. The worry was overpenetration in urban environments.

Practice and qualification ammunition was usually 148 grain mid-range .38 Special - factory fresh, not reloaded. Carry loads were standard 158 grain lead/round nose - sometimes called the "standard police load."

Obviously these old-time Agents would have never made it as Internet Commandos...

 

[rainbowbob]

Thanks for the info. Now that I think about it, he may have been issued only one gun in his entire career - and that would have been in the 1940's. Does that make a difference?

I recently asked my Mom what happened to it - and she said he turned it in when he retired (1972). So that would indicate it was an issued firearm - rather than one he owned. He wasn't a "gun guy" so that fits.

As I remember - I'm sure it was blue steel - and I'm almost certain it was a Smith.

So from what Old Fluff says, it must have been a 4" S&W M&P .38 (pre model 10) . Sound about right?

 

[bigjohnson]

I have two cardboard pistol boxes that came from the FBI. The boxes are both marked "COLT POLICE POSITIVE SPECIAL - .38 CALIBER - 4 INCH BBL". I got both boxes from a former Associate Director of the FBI who retired in the 1970s. He told me when I got the boxes from him that they had been used to store pistols in the office safe of Mr. Hoover's personal secretary. The boxes are covered in maroon leather-looking paper, and have the black and white paper label on the ends. The tops of the boxes do not come off, but are hinged along the back. Taped to the bottom of the boxes are 3X5 inch slips of paper that were used to keep track of who the guns were issued to, the date they were issued, and the date they were returned. The serial number of the gun is written on each box.
I was told that Hoover's secretary kept about a half-dozen guns in her safe that could be issued to FBI employees at the direction of Mr. Hoover.

 

[SaxonPig]

I don't know if there was a standard issue FBI gun. Seems to me they used a variety of different models over the years and many were personally owned.

JN- FYI there is no pre-13. The first K frame 357 was the Combat Magnum in 1955 (later the Model 19) and this is the only pre-model K frame 357 ever made. The M13 didn't come out until 1974 and there is no pre-model variation.

 

[Old Fuff]

Starting during the late 1930's the FBI standardized on a Colt or Smith & Wesson 6-shot, .38 Special, blued steel revolver with a 4 inch barrel. Purchases were made on the basis of which company was the lowest bidder. A new agent was issued one or the other, and usually retained it until they either resigned or retired. At that point the revolver was turned in, and distroyed rather then reissued - don't ask me why. The policy has remained in effect, although the handguns have changed.

However for various reasons, Special Agents sometimes prefered to carry something other then the gun they were issued. They were (and are) allowed to carry other approved sidearms if they purchase them. This partly accounts for the varied arms that were/are actually carried.

 

[Geezer59]

I took a tour of the FBI headquarters in Washington D.C. in 1959, when I was eleven years old. They had a firing range (in the basement?) where they gave public demonstrations of their shooting abilities. The sidearms used in the demos at that time were all blued 4" K-38 S&W's, the ammo was 148 grain wadcutters. I remember the very clean holes cut in the paper silhouette targets, as well as impressively tight groups.

They also demo'ed a Thompson submachine gun, probably model M1 or later variant. I remember the horizontal forend, no Cutts compensator, plain unfinned barrel, and stick magazine. The agent first fired a couple of very short bursts into the target's head, then emptied the rest of the magazine in one long burst into the torso. Upper group was centered on upper head, under 4" dia., torso group was in chest area, and under 10" dia. No rounds impacted out of the black. Very memorable shooting, even though done under controlled conditions.

I scrounged some fired brass from both demonstrations, had it in my personal memorabilia collection for years. Unfortunately there were too many moves in my life as a young adult, the brass was misplaced. But I still have those memories...

 

[jaydubya]

I used to play golf with a retired FBI agent from that era, who had been an SAC. I once asked him what his personal weapon was: a .32 snubby. I was stunned. He was amused. Dead now but not forgotten.

Geezer59, I took that same tour of FBI headquarters -- in 1948. The agent who demonstrated the Thompson actually put the butt against his chin and fired a five-round burst into the target, removing its center. Later that summer, at Aberdeen Proving Grounds attending the Army's Small Arms Repair School, I tried that. Never did again. I did learn how to hold a Thompson on target, however. And how to render a Thompson again useful if someone had pulled that side plate out. But that was a long time ago.

Oh, as to how to keep a Thompson on target, that's a military secret. If I told you I'd have to kill you.
Cordially, Jack

 

[rainbowbob]

I took a tour of the FBI headquarters in Washington D.C. in 1959.

I took that same tour of FBI headquarters -- in 1948.

I took the same tour as a child in 1956 with my Father, S.A. Lester O. Gallaher. It was so exciting and we were so proud that our Dad was a G-Man. A different world then. I do remember the Thompson - it made a big impression on a five year old!

 

[mrhockey]

I took the tour in 1993. The agent doing our tour used a model 13 Smith, and a semi auto, but I can't recall which one, my brain keeps telling me it was a SIG, but I was enthralled with the Model 13. Even as a kid I fixated on revolvers. I do remember him shooting an MP5 in the same manner that you guys saw the Thompson used. My teacher, it was a school trip, asked for the target and kept it up in his classroom, and when he became principal in his office.

A friend of my dad's was an agent through 1980 and he was issued a Model 10 but carried a 13 he purchased, kept it full of the "treasury load". Went private after that and kept the 13, but switched to Beretta in the mid 80's

 

[batmann]

I knew a reitred FBI agent and his personal side arm was a S&W Mdl 27, 3" bbl, I think. The blueing was wore down, but a beautiful piece.
His girl friend was ex-CIA from Germany. They had some, shall we say, interesting stories.

 

[Ala Dan]

Didn't some agents carry a 2.5" S&W model 19/66 at some point in time~?
Or was that another federal agency; such as the U.S. Marshals or Secret
Service.

 

[Old Fuff]

I don't believe the FBI purchased any model 19 / 2.5" revolvers, but I know of agents that purchased and carried their own. During the revolver era I don't believe they bought anything for general issue with less then a 4 inch barrel, and in 38 Special caliber. Special issue handguns would be another matter.

The few exceptions were when they bought 500 Smith & Wesson model 10 2.5" HB / RB revolvers in or around 1998 and model 13 /3" HB / RB for general issue in 1974 and 1986-87. But these are outside of the time span under review.

 

[Otony]

"The few exceptions were when they bought 500 Smith & Wesson model 10 2.5" HB / RB revolvers in or around 1998"

Old Fuff, is that 2.5" barrel by chance a mis-type? I have seen 2" and 3" Model 10s, but never a 2.5".

Frankly, I want one!

 

[sgt127]

I have seen an FBI 2 1/2" barrel M-10. They are real, yes, I want one too. It looks very different the first time you see one...but, it took me awhile to figure out why it looked different, its so unusual.

 

[Old Fuff]

Old Fuff, is that 2.5" barrel by chance a mis-type? I have seen 2" and 3" Model 10s, but never a 2.5".

Nope... for once I got it right.

Apparently it was a special 780-gun run. The FBI got 500, and the Detroit P.D. the other 280.

Frankly, I want one!

Just get in line, but remember I'm first...

 

[Otony]

One of my favorite Model 10s is the 3" non-heavy barrel. Don't know much about how many, or who for, but I have seen and handled one once. It was very comfortable. These were 1980s production if I recall correctly, and my brain keeps tickling me to say a South American country was the destination.

I know plenty of Smith fans who claim these never existed, and now I have another Model 10 oddity to watch for!

Anyone have a pic of the 2.5" by chance?

 

[Cosmoline]

I wonder when the "FBI" load, the 158 LSWCHP came out.

 

[JNewell]

Aw heck, if you were a real man, a man as old as Ol' Fuff, you'd remember when the FBI came out.

 

[isp2605]

In the 50s and early 60s the issued revolver was Colt 4". In the mid-late 60s and into the 70s the issued revolver was a S&W Model 10 4" with pencil barrel. Issued holster was the Hank Sloan model by Bucheimer like the one pictured below with the Model 66. The Hank Sloan was pretty fast but didn't conceal very well. This one had the modification which included the cover over the hammer. Without the protective ear the hammers would eat the heck out of a jacket within a day or 2. Prior to the protective ear it was very common to put a pencil erasure on the hammer to protect you suit jacket.


The 2.5" Model 19, like the one pictured below, were probably the most common personal purchase firearm. The smiths at Quantico did a great job tuning this one.


Other common personal purchase were J frames (like this blued 49 below but the grips have since been replaced. The Quantico smiths put a great trigger on this one which breaks SA at 2 lbs and DA at 8 lbs), some Colt Dick Specials, and 4" Model 19s. A few had Colt Pythons but that was pretty unusual. I knew a couple who bought 3.5" Model 27s but it didn't take long until those agents bought something else. Just too much steel to carry all day on a dress belt. However, I knew 1 SA who carried his 3.5" Mod 27 almost his entire career.


Every field office had at least a couple of 5" Model 27s which could be issued out. Also there were a couple of 1911s in .38 Super which could be issued out for SAs working undercover. Hoover didn't approve autos for general carry as he viewed autos to be guns that criminals carried.

The 158 gr LSWCHP+P came on line about 1975 plus or minus a year. The manufacturer was W-W and for a couple of years Federal got the contract. Prior to the LSWCHP+P the issued round was the 158 gr LRN.
The Bureau also had .357 ammo for issue if an agent carried something in .357. However, even if carrying a .357 gun it had to be loaded with the .38 LSWCHP+P and the .357 ammo was to be carried for reload only. The .357 ammo in the 60s-70s was either Remington or W-W 158 SWC (non-HP). I seem to recall that Federal may have also gotten the contract one year but it was still SWC non-HP. I always liked the W-W .357 better as it had a sharper shoulder and larger meplat.
The picture shows the 3 issued loads. The one on the left is the Remington .357. The one in the center is the W-W .357. The one on the right is a W-W .38 LSWCHP+P. The Federal .38 had the same bullet shape as the W-W but the lead seemed to be a bit softer.

 

[Checkman]

Were agents authorized a backup revolver back then?

 

[isp2605]

Whatever you carried had to be authorized, approved, checked by the smiths, and then qualified the standard course. As long as that was met you could carry it.
Bureau agents don't get into as many shoot outs as people think. It's extremely rare for an SA to be involved in shootings.

 

[Checkman]

So back in 1974 were agents authorized to carry the 3" S&W Model 13 or Model 10? I sure would like one those 2.5" S&W Model 10's. I've only seen a photo of that version in the 3rd edition of the S&W Catalog by Supica and Nahas

 

[Checkman]

A couple months ago The American Rifleman had an article about the different handguns either issued to F.B.I. agents or authorized to be carried by them over the past 70 years. Here are a few of them. you might still be able to find this article on the N.R.A.'s website.