What Self Defense Rifle?

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For an all around SHTF, survival, truck gun....it is hard to beat a good lever action. Fast shooting, lite to carry all day, always fires, good hunter, etc.

second would be an AR. I have 4 ARs in 5.56/223, but i am thinking hard about an AR in 300 blk, SBR'd and suppressed. Perfect HD.

6.8 spc/spc II and 300 blk are both great, but more expensive and will be hard to find if SHTF. So, home defense? yes. SHTF? No.

I to think a SKS would be good for this. If you have a line on ammo when SHTF. 7.62x39 is popular, but you just can't get it anywhere.
 
You might try an AR in 7.62x39mm, for the best of both worlds: heavier bullets, ability to find cheap ammo, and great ergonomics. Hornady loads quality defensive ammo in this caliber.

I am quite confident in the 5.56x45mm's ability to rapidly stop a close threat, when loaded with good expanding ammo. Hell, I think 5.45x39mm is quite sufficient.

The experts I listen to all suggest a carbine for defense, if you have the choice. I agree. The only reasons to choose a shotgun would be (1) it's the only short-barreled longarm you have, or (2) you shoot shotguns so much that it's second nature.

John
 
The AR is certainly a consideration, but I've heard the 7.62x39 conversions don't work very well.


But I'm still trying to find out if 7.62x39 is the caliber I want. I want the caliber I choose to have better terminal ballistics or "stopping power" than a quality expanding .45 ACP +P.
 
Given your parameters, I would go with the SKS or AK option. Then put a folding stock on it to shorten it up to increase maneuverability in a house situation. Also take into consideration with a rifle is the penetration. If you're in a rural area then the chances of hitting someone on the other side of a wall is minimal but in an urban enviroment you might shoot a neighbor through the wall, and you become liable for that person.
 
I feel that the 30 Carbine would be a dandy home defense weapon. Short, handy, easier to hit with at longer ranges, high capacity magazines, and plenty of oomph for home defense ranges.

Trouble is, I feel WWII veteran carbines should be kept for their historical value and post WWII commercial carbines can be hit or miss.

But, along comes the 300 AAC Blackout. Performance from a 16" barrel is a better than 30 Carbine, M4 style rifles are as handy as the 30 M1 Carbine, M4 style rifles can be easily outfitted with any of the available tacti-cool accessories on the market, as effective as 7.62x39, uses standard 5.56 NATO magazines, and ammunition is available commercially.

You could even get approval for a suppressor and/or a short barrel rifle (even handier in a house environment). Parts are available as opposed to getting custom stuff made.

This is the route I have taken for my farm, replacing my 223 Rem M4gery.
 
I'm a little confused. You're asking for one weapon that will take care of a variety of situations. You really need the right weapon for the right job. Also, I've heard (but don't KNOW) that getting a permit for a short rifle isn't that easy. You have to have a good reason for needing one. Saying you want it for HD will probably not be sufficient.

For HD, EVERYONE I have ever spoken to, including several LEOs, have said shotgun...period! A 12 gauge has the stopping power you need, but without the over penetration you'd face with equally powerful rifles (going through your walls and into your neighbors house). I know you said you don't like them, but you never said why. Plus both the rifle and ammo are REALLY cheap. Based on your budget, you could easily get a nice 12 gauge with HD ammo AND whatever it is that you REALLY want. If there are intruders and they're smart, they'll take off. If they're NOT smart or are on drugs, they'll probably still take off, because EVERYONE knows what a 12 gauge can do!!! :eek: As for deer, you said you already have a bolt action, in .308. You also said you have handguns, but didn't mention the calibers. I have a couple of .45s, a .40 (both Glocks) and a small 9mm (S&W). I also have revolvers in .357 mag (Ruger) and a .45LC/.410 shells (The Judge). If you want to always be prepared, you should get your CC permit (unless you already have one) so you can carry at all times.

My SHTF guns will be my Daniel Defense in 556 and my Christensen Arms in .308 (currently being built). Plus my shotgun and handguns! I'll probably end up getting another shotgun as well as another 556 and .308 (from good manufacturers but not necessarily match grade like I have now). I wouldn't be so quick to write off a 556 just because someone you know had problems with them. I can assure you that if the S&IT really DOES hit the fan. You won't find many people on drugs, because they won't be available for very long...those who do have them will horde them or use them to barter. What ever you get, you need to get calibers that will be easy to find. I'm CONSTANTLY buying ammo (I am NOT a survivalist, I just see prices going up, so I buy whenever I can). In fact, I actually have an inventory (on my iPhone) and right now have 1000-2000 rounds for everything i have except my .308. You should see the look on peoples faces when I see something on sale and say "let me check my inventory first".:what:
 
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Stay with "light and handy". AR, Mini, SKS or AK, that sort of thing. A lever action in .357 would be quite adequate, as well. And, most any expanding bullet; no need to over-think about that. They'll all work.

The main thing is familiarity and skill with whatever choice is made.
 
For inside the house it the Mossberg shotgun. For outside the house where I might have to reach out and touch someone or something it would be the Mini14,SKS or 30/30. For mushy headed zombies it would be the 10/22. I'm not wasting good ammo on a zombie. :D
 
I'm curious, because you've mentioned it at least a couple of times...why are you so opposed to a .45 cal. I've been told by several people far more knowledgeable than I that my .45 ACP Glock is the BEST caliber and gun for CC and second best for HD (the 12 gauge being first). The .45 makes BIG holes, but is slow enough that it won't go through your walls and into your neighbors house. You seem like a really smart guy, so why the aversion to a .45 cal? :confused:
 
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I'm curious, because you've mentioned it at least a couple of times...why do you feel that you need something with better terminal ballistics than .45 cal. I've been told by several people far more knowledgeable than I that my .45 ACP Glock is the BEST caliber and gun for CC and second best for HD (the 12 gauge being first). The .45 makes BIG holes, but is slow enough that it won't go through your walls and into your neighbors house. You seem like a really smart guy, so why the aversion to a .45 cal?
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no no no, I love the .45 ACP! It's my main pistol caliber. I have some semi auto pistols in it and revolvers in it, it's my handgun cartridge of choice. But for a carbine, I'd like something as or more powerful. It's just sort of my "rule of thumb" standard. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I keep my S&W m25 .45 ACP by my bed at night, but I'd like a long arm too.
 
I like pistol-caliber carbines. I have a CX4 Storm, and it is pretty fun! It takes the same magazines as my Beretta 92.

Many others like the Kel Tec Sub-2000. Depending on the model, it can share mags with Glock, S&W, Berretta, or Sig handguns. It also folds for compact storage.

These carbines are easy to handle (they are much shorter than rifle-caliber carbines), they are very easy to control, and they are fun to shoot as well. Plus you have one "load out" (same magazines for pistol and rifle). Something to look at.
 
I like pistol-caliber carbines. I have a CX4 Storm, and it is pretty fun! It takes the same magazines as my Beretta 92.

Many others like the Kel Tec Sub-2000. Depending on the model, it can share mags with Glock, S&W, Berretta, or Sig handguns. It also folds for compact storage.

These carbines are easy to handle (they are much shorter than rifle-caliber carbines), they are very easy to control, and they are fun to shoot as well. Plus you have one "load out" (same magazines for pistol and rifle). Something to look at.
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That's certainly something to consider. If I were to go with the pistol cal carbine route, I'd probably just buy an AR and buy a .45 upper or something for it. But I really want something in an intermediate rifle caliber.

Does a good JHP 7.62x39 have as much stopping power as a good JHP .45 ACP?
 
Not a sexy as a semi-auto, but I would second a 30-30 carbine for a number of reasons - easy to find, ammo is easy to find and fairly inexpensive, it has been taking medium to medium-large game for a century (it should handle any two legged predator with equal efficiency), and lastly it doesn't scream "EVIL BLACK RIFLE". This may or not be a concern, but I like to practice the "Gray Man" philosophy. That said, I do own an AR because of my familiarity and comfort with the platform, but it wouldn't be my first choice if I had to grab one rifle. YMMV.
 
It is really tiresome to continually hear the same misinformation, when the truth can be found with just a few minutes' worth of research or (gasp!) actually taking a day to go test it yourself.

High-speed, lightly constructed bullets penetrate less in structure than heavier, slower ones. This means that a lightweight .223 HP or ballistic tip will tend to have less, LESS, LESS penetration in building materials than a .45 ACP, while having significantly more destructive power (there's really no such thing as "stopping power" with a shoulder-fired conventional firearm). This well-known tendency is one of the main reasons most SWAT teams have abandoned the pistol-caliber submachine guns in favor of the carbine. Further, a high-speed (rifle), lightly constructed bullet will also penetrate considerably less in both tissue and building materials than 00 buck.

I have heard some of the absolute stupidest advice ever- such as dragging a deceased home invader back into your home- from LEO, so saying LEO has said something doesn't automatically mean anything positive.

It is incredibly thoughtless to imagine there is a single "best" caliber and platform for concealed carry, given the variables of varying body size, hand size, carry style, proficiency, grip strength, etc. The "big" holes of the .45 ACP are pathetic compared to the damage any expanding rifle round produces.

So, in summation, every time someone who hasn't the faintest clue screams "think of the neighbors!" when the use of a good carbine and rapidly expanding bullets is contemplated, reply, I am.

John
 
While I have a selection of rifles and pistols that would give me an ideal choice for a wide variety of situations, for Home Defense, my go to is a 9mm carbine, loaded with subsonic ammo.

I suspect that home defense, more often than not, might involve low light and enclosed spaces, and having fired an M60 in a stair well in the early '80s left me with a strong impression of the value of low retort and muzzle flash in such a situation (took a week till my ears stopped ringing, and I couldn't see any thing but purple spots for about 1/2 hour).

While it *is* easier to go around a corner or through a door with a pistol, 'snap shooting' from a carbine will always be more accurate, even from the hip (especially with a light laser attached).

A few minutes wrestling with a friend with a short bit of broomstick will prove that it is easier to retain, AND control the muzzle of something that you are holding with two hands than a pistol.

Opening doors and the like is also not restricted as a pistol caliber Carbine can be handled one handed when such situations arise, while still allowing better muzzle awareness.

When I was young, it was explained to me the the M1 Carbine was invented so shavetail lieutenants would be less likely to shoot themselves in the foot, or one of their troops. This makes some sense to me, so a small carbine would be the first thing I'd want to hand off to someone less experienced so they could back me up as I switched to a pistol or rifle.

9mm ammo is the next cheapest thing to .22LR, and commonly available, which means more practice with less fuss.

sSUB2K_002.jpg
 
Well, you could do worse, but I'd like to see any data showing that 9mm subsonic load won't have extremely deep penetration in both tissue and building materials.

J
 
The semi-autos that I can think of have very penetrating rounds, which scares me away for "Home Defense." But...

I think the M1 Carbine would be a good choice for home defense and truck defense. It wouldn't be ideal for hunting, but you could make it work

Outside of the M1, I'd go lever action. A .44 lever action, loaded with .44 mag in the woods, and loaded with .44 special at home/in the truck would be a great choice!
 
Well, I've been looking for what's best for me for a while.

Tried a Yugo SKS, but it's over 7lbs (wood stock) and almost as bulky as my Garand. Decided to sell it - got out of it what I had in it.

I've got shotguns and those will fit the bill, but I want a rifle, too.

I'm thinking lever action, but in either .45 Colt or .357 Mag. Here's why:

First, they're lever actions and not "black." Pull out a lever action, and you're a good guy - the Lone Ranger, the Rifleman, a simple man ready to defend his ranch. Pull out a AR or AK - especially now after the Colorado shooting - and you get the stink eye from the uneducated masses.

Second, I have handguns in both calibers. If I have to hit the road, or stuff my pockets with ammo, I have the same ammo for both guns.

Third, looking at the ballistics of a .357 out of a 20" rifle barrel, you're knocking on the low end of .30-30 territory. Even cowboy .38 Special loads get bumped up near +P levels! I haven't researched .45 Colt ballistics out of a rifle barrel, yet, but even it it isn't jazzed up much, it's still a 255 grain slug at/near 1000fps.

With the right bullets, these rifles are great from paper-punching to plinking; from small game to medium size game or home defense.

I know they have limitations: lower magazine capacity, slower for a full reload, slower to run than a semi-auto, no rail for optics, etc. But for me, my family, and my plan, it fits the bill.

Q
 
A 12 gauge has the stopping power you need, but without the over penetration you'd face with equally powerful rifles (going through your walls and into your neighbors house).
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12ga with defensive ammo will penetrate far more than .223 caliber AR-15.



If you don't like the AR or AK platforms, which would best serve your needs based on the OP, an M1 carbine, SKS, or even lever action rifle would fit your needs nicely, as others have stated.

Plus, I agree these 3 look much less scary to a hoplophobe than the terrifying blackness of the AR-15 or AK patterns.

I also think the M1 carbine makes a perfect HD gun, but whatever you choose, it's all about your skill with your chosen rifle.
 
Based on the posts here helping me, here is what I've come up with as my main choices (in no particular order):

AK47 7.62x39
SKS 7.62x39
AR15 5.56 with a .45 ACP upper
Lever Gun in 30-30, .357, or .44 (I know it's not semi auto like I said I wanted, but I do see advantages to it.)



My main concern: I'd go with the SKS or AK in a heartbeat if I knew what kind of stopping power the 7.62x39 JHP has compared to .45 ACP or 30-30. (I've heard that 7.62x39 is slightly less powerful than 30-30?)
 
I'd go with the SKS or AK in a heartbeat if I knew what kind of stopping power the 7.62x39 JHP has compared to .45 ACP or 30-30.
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The .45acp is about 1,000ft/s and about 500ft-lbs.
The .30-30 is about 2,250ft/s and about 1,850ft-lbs.
The 7.62x39 is about 2,400ft/s and about 1,650ft-lbs.

All-in-all, I'd call the .30-30 and the 7.62x39mm about even. The major difference besides platform (semi-auto vs. lever action) is that the 7.62x39 has a little more range. This is fairly irrelevant to your needs, though. But there's no reason to think the 7.62x39 isn't as good as the .30-30 in stopping power. In fact, your only issue should be whether or not the .30-30 and the 7.62 are too over-penetrating. The .45acp isn't nearly as likely to do that and less likely to lose energy into your neighbors. If you want .45-type abilities in a HD/SD rifle, then go with the .44mag/.44special.
 
Lever Gun in 30-30, .357, or .44 (I know it's not semi auto like I said I wanted, but I do see advantages to it.)
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If you want an overall good rifle that is semi-automatic in a nice magnum handgun caliber you may want to consider walking a few gun shows or looking used. Between about 1961 and 1974 Ruger marketed a real slick little semi-auto carbine style rifle in .44 Magnum. The Ruger Model 44. I owned a few and regret selling them, if I see another it is on my short list. :)

Read about it here.

Something to consider if you don't mind looking.

Ron
 

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The .45acp is about 1,000ft/s and about 500ft-lbs.
The .30-30 is about 2,250ft/s and about 1,850ft-lbs.
The 7.62x39 is about 2,400ft/s and about 1,650ft-lbs.

All-in-all, I'd call the .30-30 and the 7.62x39mm about even. The major difference besides platform (semi-auto vs. lever action) is that the 7.62x39 has a little more range. This is fairly irrelevant to your needs, though. But there's no reason to think the 7.62x39 isn't as good as the .30-30 in stopping power. In fact, your only issue should be whether or not the .30-30 and the 7.62 are too over-penetrating. The .45acp isn't nearly as likely to do that and less likely to lose energy into your neighbors. If you want .45-type abilities in a HD/SD rifle, then go with the .44mag/.44special.
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Only reason I'd think the .45 ACP may have some stopping power advantage is because it's a much larger diameter, heavier bullet, although it's moving very slow compared to 7.62x39 or 30-30
 
Just to add to it:

Mosin Nagant M44. Short barreled, handy.
7.62 X 54 R= a cheap version of 30-06. Plenty of soft points I would NOT want to get hit with, and steel jacketed for those armour piercing days. Plus, it has a bayonet for close quarters combat.

If you have to use it, you won't mind the fact that the police destroyed your 100-200 dollar rifle by letting it rust while it's being held in an evidence locker.

Use the money you save to practice working the bolt, and point shooting.

There is no more battle proven rifle then the Mosin Nagant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_BM59



If you want a powerful, expensive, semi-auto for close range the Garand BM 59 in 30-06 is an awesome choice.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_BM59

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/05/08/the-t26-tanker-m1-garand/
 
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