What Self Defense Rifle?

[Prosser]

Mini 30? That sounds like a great gun. Fun to shoot, accurate,
light, and not absurdly expensive. You may have sold me.

I just looked at the ft-lbs of energy for the 7.62 x 39.

I have three pistol rounds that with proper loads exceed the 1600 ft-lb range, the last nearly doubles the 7.62.
They are:
.475 Linebaugh.
420 grains at 1350 fps
.500JRH: .440 grains at 1350 fps
.500 Maximum: 525 grains at 1550 fps.

Used in a carbine, these might give you a lot more velocity, and hit very hard due to their diameter. I imagine with a slightly lighter bullet, say 300-350 grains you could limit penetration a bit, and get near 2000 fps.
Put that in a lever action rifle...

The .458 Socom does pretty much the same, but you can't shoot it in a revolver.

Also you have about a 70% chance you will have 2-3 attackers, and, if you are like most, about a 30-50% hit rate. Dim light for sure.

 

[LouisianaGunner12]

Also you have about a 70% chance you will have 2-3 attackers, and, if you are like most, about a 30-50% hit rate. Dim light for sure.

Exactly. So I think ten rounds would be the absolute minimum, and more would be preferred. That's another reason why I don't really want a shotgun, I know it's devastating, but I want more than 8 rounds at most.

 

[LouisianaGunner12]

I mean, is a good 7.62x39 defensive load like the Hornady TAP something that could be relied upon to stop a large, charging assailant on PCP?

Or do I have to move up to 12 gauge, .308, or .458 SOCOM and such high power rounds?

 

[wlewisiii]

My SD rifle is my deer rifle & pretty much everything rifle.

Winchester 94, 20" barrel, .30-30.

 

[Prosser]

Since we don't have a lot of data on the subject:
.223 War seems to indicate it isn't a great stopper.
7.62 X 39: Looks like the minimum for a proven stopper to me.

My rule of thumb is compare the weight of the attacker to the same size feral pig, or deer. Sure the pigs are tougher, but they don't often wear things that stop bullets, like kevlar. Guys that attacked me where over 300, maybe 350.
What would stop that size hog?

The 39 is pretty much half the energy of the .308, 30-06, or 7.62 x 54R.

There is a large difference in stopping when moving from .308 to .458 in rifle rounds. Make your choices...

Calibers I have picked:
7.62 X 54R cheap ammo, 18 cents a round, all over the place.
30-06. Had it since 1980. A classic, good enough for the 48.
.375 H&H. Great deal on the rifle. Yes, it would work on 350 pound hogs.
.22lr Everybody should have one.

Wish list:
.308 so when the ammo is there, I can buy it. Same with 7.62 x 39.
In Kali AK's are bringing Rolls Royce prices. Don't like inaccurate guns.
M1A, Mini 30, maybe.
AR 15, last on the list. Just never liked them that much.
YMMV.

 

[One_Jackal]

I would just find a used high point carbine. They are accurate and reliable. You can drag it behind a 4 wheeler and it will function. (I did drag mine behind a 4 wheeler) Yup, it's made of zamac and it's uglier than a bulldog after a fire. But it works and if it breaks you send it to MA and they will repair it or send a new one. For $250 it's hard to beat.

 

[DavidMS]

Got a thought

Figure out what works for you ergonomically and buy that.

Me? I would go with the AK47 with a folding stock and fit it with a red dot and weapon light given the choices on the list. Good stopping power and more than accurate enough for self defense at the ranges you are most likely to need it. 7.62x39 Hollow Points are more than adequate for self defense and practice ammo is cheap.

The only reason that I won't consider the mini-14 is that I would not trust the folding stock options and suspect it would loose some of its handy ness.

Good luck!

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

9mm ammo is the next cheapest thing to .22LR, and commonly available, which means more practice with less fuss.

You for the most part have to go online to get it but 5.45x39 is cheaper than 9mm.

The AK is less ergonomic. The safety lever while large and easy to manipulate is in a bad location. The "rock the mag" in loading and reloading is difficult under stress unless you practice a lot. It is the number one operator error that I see on the line.

I'm an AK guy and love my rifle but I agree with you. Practice does make perfect and it's instinctual for me to use it but the AR has the advantage.

Figure out what works for you ergonomically and buy that.

Me? I would go with the AK47 with a folding stock and fit it with a red dot and weapon light given the choices on the list. Good stopping power and more than accurate enough for self defense at the ranges you are most likely to need it. 7.62x39 Hollow Points are more than adequate for self defense and practice ammo is cheap.

The only reason that I won't consider the mini-14 is that I would not trust the folding stock options and suspect it would loose some of its handy ness.

Good luck!

Not sure where you would need the folding stock. I changed out the one on my AK.

 

[coalman]

Quote:
The 7.62x39mm, with quality bullets, is considerably more effective than .45 ACP

Can you show me any information on this?

The 7.62x39 offers more energy, penetration, momentum... pretty much every valuable measure that causes damage. ILLUSTRATIVE visual:

So you don't think 7.62x39 is a good manstopper?

It's very good. However, IMO, one big issue here is OP has dismissed the most effective up close self-defense longarm shot-for-shot: 12 guage. ILLUSTRATIVE visual:


Note: 30cm = 11.8"

 

[Infidel4life11]

Personally I think a rifle for HD is a bad idea all around. I have a 12ga w/tactical loads and a 9mm w/ personal defense rounds by my bed, AR's and Bolt guns in my safe. I've shot and been shot at inside of houses, if the intended target was hit all went well. However I've seen rifle rounds with my own eyes not hit their intended targets and end up 3-4 rooms away and once in someone else's house. IMO a 410 is best inside your house, Saiga 410, Mossberg 500 410 even H&R singshot 410 you can shoot down a hallway and not hit dry wall but if something is stand there it won't be after the bang. Now if I had to have a rifle for HD and all the other things you've laid out I would say a Ruger mini-14/30 if the old wood stock isn't to your liking changing them out for a folding stock isn't hard.

 

[LouisianaGunner12]

7.62 X 39: Looks like the minimum for a proven stopper to me.

That's kind of what I thought too. And honestly I'd like a rifle cartridge well above minimum, but still practical for home defense.

Then again, .45 ACP is considered more than adequate and 7.62x39 is considered more powerful than .45, so maybe I'm reading into it too much.

 

[One_Jackal]

The reason I favor the 9mm carbine is ammo. I just buy 147gr FMJ ammo for everything. 147gr american eagle ammo rips right through 24 inches of ballistic gelatin. Winchester Rangers are off the hook. The NATO load makes shooting a golf ball at 75 yards real easy. Every shot either hits the golf ball or hits so close the flying dirt moves the golf ball.

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

With all due respect, it sounds to be like the OP doesn't like, and doesn't want to like the 7.62x39. That's fine; there's nothing wrong with that. Many have been saying, myself included, that the 7.62x39 is a great man-stopper and it's been ignored. Then, when one person mentions that the .223 is great and the 7.62 is minimal (not true), he believes it. Again, there's nothing wrong with that, I just find it odd.

 

[LouisianaGunner12]

With all due respect, it sounds to be like the OP doesn't like, and doesn't want to like the 7.62x39. That's fine; there's nothing wrong with that. Many have been saying, myself included, that the 7.62x39 is a great man-stopper and it's been ignored. Then, when one person mentions that the .223 is great and the 7.62 is minimal (not true), he believes it. Again, there's nothing wrong with that, I just find it odd.

Actually, I want to go with the 7.62x39. It's cheap and I like the guns that shoot it (SKS and AK). But I really want to make sure that the cartridge I use is more than enough for the job but still be practical. Based on the test results I've seen above, it actually seems that the 7.62x39 may be sufficient for my requirements, I'm just not sure yet.

 

[LouisianaGunner12]

I have been looking around though, I like those 18" barreled STG58 DSA FAL's in .308.

I wonder if, with a short suppressor (which I know would take some NFA paperwork), this could be a viable, practical self/home defense rifle. I do live out in the country, and I would also probably use light loads or load my own to acceptable specs.

 

[kingcheese]

A sterling is an affordable gun for most people, weighs a ton but its simple, shoots a 9x19, costs around 300-400, you could drop a deer if you had to

 

[Art Eatman]

To repeat: There is hardly ANYTHING that WON'T work.

"Defense" means up close and personal. While I doubt that I'd choose a carbine which uses a pistol round, they'd likely be sufficient in 99% of events. In all honesty, I figure that even a bolt-action deer rifle would be quite usable--but I really don't figure on pagan hordes in large numbers.

A plain-vanilla SKS, AR, Mini, AK, etc., etc., will serve quite well.

 

[coalman]

Quote:
With all due respect, it sounds to be like the OP doesn't like, and doesn't want to like the 7.62x39. That's fine; there's nothing wrong with that. Many have been saying, myself included, that the 7.62x39 is a great man-stopper and it's been ignored. Then, when one person mentions that the .223 is great and the 7.62 is minimal (not true), he believes it. Again, there's nothing wrong with that, I just find it odd.

Actually, I was thinking the same thing. That, or trying to just keep the pot stirred and the thread going.

Actually, I want to go with the 7.62x39. It's cheap and I like the guns that shoot it (SKS and AK). But I really want to make sure that the cartridge I use is more than enough for the job but still be practical. Based on the test results I've seen above, it actually seems that the 7.62x39 may be sufficient for my requirements, I'm just not sure yet.

Sufficient? Honestly, I've never really read/heard someone - being serious, and who is not an AR disciple - question if the 7.62x39 is "suffient". It more than is and that comment raises my eyebrows some as to the sincerity of the inquiry. Whether you like it or not, and whether it meets your imagined/real needs or not, is different.

Regardless, I keep coming back to the 12 guage as the most effective (i.e. more than "sufficient") and versatile longgun for up close use. If it must be a high power rifle, the AK47 for the fantasy "SHTF" only use, or an AR for SHTF+plinking IMO.

 

[shaggy430]

Just to add to it:

Mosin Nagant M44. Short barreled, handy.
7.62 X 54 R= a cheap version of 30-06. Plenty of soft points I would NOT want to get hit with, and steel jacketed for those armour piercing days. Plus, it has a bayonet for close quarters combat.

I know this is going back a couple pages, but good Lord, can we not get through one single thread without someone talking about a Mosin. A 6 foot long (with bayonet) clunky, stiff bolt action rifle would be the absolute last thing I would ever use.

 

[Matthew Courtney]

Since you already own a .308 Bolt rifle, that is what I suggest for you- .308. With respect to stopping power in centerfire rifles, quality hits are more important than caliber. If you practice in low light, you can get hits in low light. Training and practice are much more important than caliber.

 

[JShirley]

Post #84 scientifically illustrates that a .223 is not only more effective, but considerably safer for home defense than 9x19mm, .45 ACP, or 12 gauge loaded with 00.

John

 

[Prosser]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu143.htm

"Conclusions:

Here’s the bottom line: Rifles > Shotguns > Pistols.

Do as you please, but that’s just the facts. "

 

[Warp]

Personally I think a rifle for HD is a bad idea all around. I have a 12ga w/tactical loads and a 9mm w/ personal defense rounds by my bed, AR's and Bolt guns in my safe. I've shot and been shot at inside of houses, if the intended target was hit all went well. However I've seen rifle rounds with my own eyes not hit their intended targets and end up 3-4 rooms away and once in someone else's house. IMO a 410 is best inside your house, Saiga 410, Mossberg 500 410 even H&R singshot 410 you can shoot down a hallway and not hit dry wall but if something is stand there it won't be after the bang. Now if I had to have a rifle for HD and all the other things you've laid out I would say a Ruger mini-14/30 if the old wood stock isn't to your liking changing them out for a folding stock isn't hard.

Good bet that the 12 gauge and the 9mm will penetrate more walls than 5.56 out of an AR.



I choose an AR. If for some reason you doubt its capacity to stop, use a quality defensive load, there are a lot aimed at LEO use that are very good.

 

[Prosser]

"I have been looking around though, I like those 18" barreled STG58 DSA FAL's in .308.

I wonder if, with a short suppressor (which I know would take some NFA paperwork), this could be a viable, practical self/home defense rifle. I do live out in the country, and I would also probably use light loads or load my own to acceptable specs."
1100 dollars for an Austrian FAL? That sounds too good to be true. If it's that good, go with it.
I gather you are in .308 already? Then stay there. I'm not sure for the possibility of home defense I'm running out and getting a new caliber.

Is that rifle adjustable for light loads? Gas pressure setting?

I would also be looking at the M1A. Very accurate, and they seem to shoot better with short barrels. Less Barrel whip.

Don't know if I'd want this short a barrel:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...2596/Springfield+M1A+SOCOMII+308+CARBON+Black

 

[Prosser]

Politics determine how your law is applied in your area. Since the HR suggests we don't discuss law, I'm not going to make a recommendation for your HD gun, since I can't discuss your states law.
What I would suggest is you contact your LEO and DA, and an attorney that would represent you, and find out how your state's written law is applied in your area.