What size of groups should I look for?

[TH3180]

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

First I will give you the details. I am only reloading 9mm. I am shooting them out of a G17. I am using winchester primers, a few different powders and Montana Gold Bullets 115g and 147g. I am shooting my test loads at an indoor range, 7 yards off of a sandbag rest. Five shot groups.
What size groups should I be looking for? Are we talking sub-five inches, sub-one inch or somewhere in-between. I shot some AA#7 pushing a 147g last week and I got a 1.841" group. I shot the same load today and my group was 2.339". I'm working up these loads and I am getting groups with in a half of an inch of each other at different powder weights. Please point me in the right direction here. I you need more details please let me know.
Thanks

 

[LiveLife]

With G17/G22 at 7 yards, you should be getting 1 inch shot groups and 2 inch shot groups at 10 yards.

Most of my W231/HP38 9mm/40S&W/45ACP loads produce similar shot groups off hand using various jacketed, plated and MBC lead bullets.

If you want a reference load to compare, try 115 gr MG FMJ with 4.5-4.7 gr W231/HP38.

 

[TH3180]

With G17/G22 at 7 yards, you should be getting 1 inch shot groups and 2 inch shot groups at 10 yards.

Most of my W231/HP38 9mm/40S&W/45ACP loads produce similar shot groups off hand using various jacketed, plated and MBC lead bullets.

If you want a reference load to compare, try 115 gr MG FMJ with 4.5-4.7 gr W231/HP38.

I don't have my numbers in front of me so I will use yours.
4.4g 1.365" group
4.5g 2.148" group
4.6g 1.456" group
What charge would you use or are they close enough not to matter? That is the type of thing I'm running into.:banghead: Am I being to critical about all of this?

 

[mbruce]

I don't have my numbers in front of me so I will use yours.
4.4g 1.365" group
4.5g 2.148" group
4.6g 1.456" group
What charge would you use or are they close enough not to matter? That is the type of thing I'm running into.:banghead: Am I being to critical about all of this?

Use what is the best compromise in accuracy and perceived recoil...

for example.. 4.3 of 231 is not as accurate as 4.5 for my gun... but 4.3 is accurate enough and i like the cush recoil...

based on your numbers the 4.3 is a clear winner...less powder, lighter recoil, tighter groups...that load wins the stuffed animal at the star shootout with the crooked barrel air guns...

 

[TH3180]

So it's not just about the numbers then. I have to factor in things like recoil. I will say I was shooting some blue dot today the groups were up in the high 2" but the recoil was little and the brass dropped right at my feet.

 

[Walkalong]

One group means nothing. If the results continue to repeat themselves, then you have something.

 

[TH3180]

One group means nothing. If the results continue to repeat themselves, then you have something.

How many sets of groups per weight do you shot when working up a load?

 

[k4swb]

indoor range, 7 yards off of a sandbag rest. Five shot groups

I would be extremely dissapointed in myself and everything involved if I shot a gun off a rest at 21' and all the bullet holes were not touching in a nice small group.

I'm not saying anyone else should be, but I sure would.

 

[TH3180]

I would be extremely dissapointed in myself and everything involved if I shot a gun off a rest at 21' and all the bullet holes were not touching in a nice small group.

I'm not saying anyone else should be, but I sure would.

I'm working off the data in the books, what the heck am I doing wrong? I'm close to all five rounds touching but I'm not there.

 

[mbruce]

I would be extremely dissapointed in myself and everything involved if I shot a gun off a rest at 21' and all the bullet holes were not touching in a nice small group.

I'm not saying anyone else should be, but I sure would.

Or in other words....

Ask yourself why are you reloading, what is accurate enough, and what are your goals. Based on those answers you will either be forever in pursuit of tigther groups or be content with findings after one range session.

Me...I reload to shoot more, looking for accurate enough to knock down steel, and my goal(s) is to find that load that has the lightest recoil with acceptable accuracy.

And even from rest on a sandbag you must still be consistent...shooting consistently accurate from rest isn't as easy as just propping and pulling...

 

[twofifty]

^^^ this.

If you shoot USPSA or IDPA, you will also want to pay attention to which loads allow your HG to quickly and naturally return to the original sight picture, without having to force or manhandle the gun. This will speed up your ability to place 2 rounds in the A zone.

Something else: In these action games, knowing your ammo's Power Factor is very important per the rules. You will need to chrono your rounds to make the PF calculation, and leave yourself a cushion for cold days or lower altitude matches.

 

[Mal H]

TH3180 - it is quite possible to shoot poorly off of a sandbag, it's done all the time.

If you really want to eliminate the human factor and only see what your pistol and loads will do, you'll need a Ransom Rest. However, very few can afford one or use it often enough to make the expenditure worthwhile. The next best thing is a pistol perch as opposed to a sandbag. That type of stand supports both the barrel and the grip. If you take good care in pulling the trigger without adding any movement to the pistol, you might be getting better and more consistent results.

 

[k4swb]

I'm working off the data in the books, what the heck am I doing wrong? I'm close to all five rounds touching but I'm not there.

Sounds like you are getting there. You may have to vary some things SLIGHTLY from exact book numbers. That's one of the fun things about reloading. Just keep practicing.

As another poster said, some sort of pistol perch may make things simpler.
I have at least two different kinds. The most recent I have tried is one from HySkore. http://hyskore.com/wp/2010/12/06/swivel-pistol/
Mine is an older style that was on closeout a couple of years back.

 

[243winxb]

Glock 17 Accuracy

NRA Review of the Glock 17 http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/glock-17-pistol-history-review/ Some shoot better then others is my guess. Not hand fitted match grade target guns.

 

[KodiakBeer]

At 7 yards, you should be able to mix different powders, different bullet weights, different brass and different primers and still see small groups.

Get out to 25 yards to see what loads are accurate.

 

[Old krow]

If you want a reference load to compare, try 115 gr MG FMJ with 4.5-4.7 gr W231/HP38

I might even suggest shooting some factory ammo if you have any laying around. Find something that it halfway decent to compare to.

If you take care to shoot the same way then all of you groups should move (open or close) in relation to each other. If you can use a known good load or accurate factory ammo it should give you a good indicator of how your groups are doing.

I shoot more than 5 also. I declare success when my handloads beat out (in terms of accuracy) factory ammo or other known good loads on a consistent basis.

 

[tac_driver]

My expectations with my loads are sub 2" groups at 15yards out of my Glock 19 from a shooting rest.
147gr. berrys plated round nose 5 shot groups.
BE 3.6 1.760"
WST 3.7 1.885"
Unique 3.7 1.515"
WSF 4.1 1.712"

 

[rfwobbly]

Mr 3180 -

Welcome back. Some thoughts....

• The Glock is not optimized for accuracy. Some accuracy has been traded away in order to fire every time. Still, I think your optimal groups are at least 1/2" smaller.

• Most modern 9's prefer 124gr bullets. It might be as simple as your bullet weight.

• The largest variable has got to be the amount of powder. Are you weighing each round's powder? How do you insure each round has the same powder?

• Second largest variable has got to be the brass. Is this mixed brass?

Hope this helps!

 

[TH3180]

Mr 3180 -

Welcome back. Some thoughts....

• The Glock is not optimized for accuracy. Some accuracy has been traded away in order to fire every time. Still, I think your optimal groups are at least 1/2" smaller.

• Most modern 9's prefer 124gr bullets. It might be as simple as your bullet weight.

• The largest variable has got to be the amount of powder. Are you weighing each round's powder? How do you insure each round has the same powder?

• Second largest variable has got to be the brass. Is this mixed brass?

Hope this helps!

Here is the list.
Federal brass. Where I bought some brass to get stocked up. He buys it from a local PD, they shoot 100% Federal and I know it is once fired. I have been using my powder thrower. I get my weight set up then weigh again after five. All my rounds are at 1.152".
So far I am thinking a few things. I need to test more than 5 rounds, I should weigh every round when working up a powder, I need to slow down when shooting from a rest, I plane old need more practice and I need to remember this should be fun. I think I am getting to critical about the numbers. The only way I am going to get better about this, is do it more.
To all please let me know am I on track.

 

[918v]

I'd expect a Glock to be able to shoot 1" groups at 7 yards. But that don't mean every load will shoot 1". Some will shoot worse.

I have found N320 to be generally more accurate in the 9mm with lighter bullet weights than 231, like 50% more accurate. You may wanna try it.

 

[TH3180]

I'd expect a Glock to be able to shoot 1" groups at 7 yards. But that don't mean every load will shoot 1". Some will shoot worse.

I have found N320 to be generally more accurate in the 9mm with lighter bullet weights than 231, like 50% more accurate. You may wanna try it.

Now when you say 1" groups. Are you saying anything that starts with a 1 or are you saying 1" and below. Most of the test groups I have shot have been in the 1" range some towards the high end of 1 and some towards the low end of 1.

 

[LiveLife]

Now when you say 1" groups. Are you saying anything that starts with a 1 or are you saying 1" and below?

1" shot groups center-to-center or less.

With G17/G22 at 7 yards, you should be getting 1 inch shot groups and 2 inch shot groups at 10 yards.

The Glock is not optimized for accuracy. Some accuracy has been traded away in order to fire every time.

True. My experience with Glocks have been that they are well capable of producing sub 1"-2" shot groups at 7-10 yards and sub 3" shot groups at 15 yards. But wait, there's more ... read on.

Although I usually get very good accuracy with Montana Gold FMJ loads, when I did a range test of Promo powder that varied .2-.3 gr charge-to-charge, I even got these shot groups with Missouri lead bullets out of G22/G27 using Lone Wolf barrels (factory Glock barrels produce even more accurate shot groups):

180 Lead/4.4 gr - 7 yard 1" - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 2.5" - Firm recoil

Here's the rest of the range test:

40S&W average shot groups:
155 FMJ/4.8 gr - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 3" - Firm recoil
155 FMJ/5.2 gr - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 3" - Firm recoil

180 Plated/4.5 gr - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 2" - Firm recoil
180 Plated/4.8 gr - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 3" - Firm recoil

180 Lead/3.5 gr - Accuracy all over the 8x11 copy paper - Light recoil
180 Lead/3.8 gr - 7 yard 2" - 10 yard 3" - 15 yard 4" - Mild recoil
180 Lead/4.1 gr - 7 yard 1.5" - 10 yard 1" - 15 yard 4" - Moderate recoil
180 Lead/4.4 gr - 7 yard 1" - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 2.5" - Firm recoil

The 180 gr Rainier plated/4.5 gr was very accurate off hand. My first shot group produced 1" group at 15 yards with the G27! The 180 gr Missouri Bullet/4.4 gr was also very accurate off hand. Many 3 round 15 yard shot groups had two holes near/touching each other. The 180 Missouri Bullet/4.1 gr load also shows promise as I kept getting 1" group at 10 yards.

 

[RandyP]

Are you a bullseye competition shooter? If so, you will do well to continue your pursuit of the 'single ragged hole'.

Personally for the past 40+ years I have practiced to keep up my proficiency in achieving MOD (Minute of Dead) accuracy at realistic self-defense distances (under 25') In generic terms I can keep all my shots in a group that can be covered by your average paper cake plate. Out at about 50 feet my groups can be covered by your standard 8-9" paper plate. MORE than enough to get the job done.

It all depends on what your realistic needs are and what your expectation level is.

Yes if I really focus on the task, and get my eyeglass prescription updated - lol - I can create reasonably tighter groups, but I'm no longer on that Army Pistol team and it's no longer 1971 - lol.

 

[REL1203]

40S&W average shot groups:
155 FMJ/4.8 gr - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 3" - Firm recoil
155 FMJ/5.2 gr - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 3" - Firm recoil

180 Plated/4.5 gr - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 2" - Firm recoil
180 Plated/4.8 gr - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 3" - Firm recoil

180 Lead/3.5 gr - Accuracy all over the 8x11 copy paper - Light recoil
180 Lead/3.8 gr - 7 yard 2" - 10 yard 3" - 15 yard 4" - Mild recoil
180 Lead/4.1 gr - 7 yard 1.5" - 10 yard 1" - 15 yard 4" - Moderate recoil
180 Lead/4.4 gr - 7 yard 1" - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 2.5" - Firm recoil

The 180 gr Rainier plated/4.5 gr was very accurate off hand. My first shot group produced 1" group at 15 yards with the G27! The 180 gr Missouri Bullet/4.4 gr was also very accurate off hand. Many 3 round 15 yard shot groups had two holes near/touching each other. The 180 Missouri Bullet/4.1 gr load also shows promise as I kept getting 1" group at 10 yards.

Hey bds, with your results above, what Powder were you using?

 

[918v]

Now when you say 1" groups. Are you saying anything that starts with a 1 or are you saying 1" and below. Most of the test groups I have shot have been in the 1" range some towards the high end of 1 and some towards the low end of 1.

1" and below. What you have shot is what is to be expected. Not all loads will group well. Just because they are printed in a book don't mean they're accurate. They may be safe, but that's all.

Also, be aware that MG is not the holy grail of projectiles. It is a decent bulk product. if you want to test purely for accuracy, try Hornady. They are the most consistent handgun bullets available.